Game Thread: Week 16: Vikings vs Seahawks:

[Screamin12th]

What is the point of replacing a stopgap with another stopgap. I don't understand that logic.



I think it would be borderling incompetent for the Seahawks to get rid of Geno and have Howell and some developmental QB compete for a job. It would show a complete lack of seriousness by the team.

Keeping your players happy is more important than keeping your fans happy. Completely punting on your QB position is a good way to lose your team.

Keeping Geno shows a serious lack of commitment to success.

 

[MrS]

Tanking teams are perennially bad teams.

so if we tank one season we will be the browns?

 

[flyerhawk]

so if we tank one season we will be the browns?

The challenge is making it just one season

 

[MrS]

What is the point of replacing a stopgap with another stopgap. I don't understand that logic.



I think it would be borderling incompetent for the Seahawks to get rid of Geno and have Howell and some developmental QB compete for a job. It would show a complete lack of seriousness by the team.

Keeping your players happy is more important than keeping your fans happy. Completely punting on your QB position is a good way to lose your team.

The team needs to be blown up, top to bottom. Schneider wont find a QB or fix the OL and unfortunately a new regime will want their own coach.

The challenge is making it just one season

Thats a fair point, schneider would be liable to take a WR or corner #1

 

[Screamin12th]

The Seahawks are not and never have been the Brown or Jets. Also i have never seen a team tank and suck for years after words but i have seen teams stick with a QB and suck ass till that QB was gone.

Geno makes seattle just good enough to always pick in that 18 range, some of you use to bitch about Wilson being good enough to always get us to 22-26 range but never bad enough to get a good pick. Geno is not as good as Wilson and not bad enough for us to get a top 10 pick with out removing every other "good" player off the team.

Seattle would have to do some trades to get a high pick OR take a chance on a reclamation project QB. Someone like a Daniel Jones who could get you big gains or BIG fails in your overall record. Thing is you bring in a younger QB and if he has some success you got him as capital and could use them as bait on trades. Some teams will buy if the guy shows a flash of competence.

 

[flyerhawk]

The team needs to be blown up, top to bottom. Schneider wont find a QB or fix the OL and unfortunately a new regime will want their own coach.

Thats a fair point, schneider would be liable to take a WR or corner #1

They blow it up and Schneider, and most likely the coaching staff, are all fired.

No teams actually try to tank because it is bad for the coaches, the front office and the players. Furthermore it never really works because there is so much player churn in the NFL that you turn into a developmental team, building players for other squads.

So if the team ACTUALLY collapses and winds up 3-14 or something like that, it means that the team is completely bereft of talent and/or completely mismanaged.

The weird part for me is that some of you seem to think that the reason we don't win more games is because of Geno Smith but you ALSO think that if we replace Geno Smith with rookie or cheap filler player, the team will be fighting for No. 1 overall pick. It makes no sense to me.

 

[flyerhawk]

The Seahawks are not and never have been the Brown or Jets. Also i have never seen a team tank and suck for years after words but i have seen teams stick with a QB and suck ass till that QB was gone.

You clearly don't remember the 1990s. We most certainly WERE the Browns and Jets. We went 14 years without winning a single playoff game and only being in the playoffs one time. The team was on the cusp of leaving town when Paul Allen basically saved it. And Paul Allen was one of the best owners in the NFL largely because he didn't make rash decisions and he left the football people run the team.

Geno makes seattle just good enough to always pick in that 18 range, some of you use to bitch about Wilson being good enough to always get us to 22-26 range but never bad enough to get a good pick. Geno is not as good as Wilson and not bad enough for us to get a top 10 pick with out removing every other "good" player off the team.

How many seasons are you willing to go where we win 6 or fewer games in order to get that QB?

Seattle would have to do some trades to get a high pick OR take a chance on a reclamation project QB. Someone like a Daniel Jones who could get you big gains or BIG fails in your overall record. Thing is you bring in a younger QB and if he has some success you got him as capital and could use them as bait on trades. Some teams will buy if the guy shows a flash of competence.

Sure. But also understand that the actions of the coaches when it comes to the QB has an impact of the entire team. Just look at how the Seahawks slowly collapsed because players thought that Russ was treated like he was better than they were.

 

[MrS]

They blow it up and Schneider, and most likely the coaching staff, are all fired.

Thats the point.

No teams actually try to tank because it is bad for the coaches, the front office and the players. Furthermore it never really works because there is so much player churn in the NFL that you turn into a developmental team, building players for other squads.

Im hoping schneider buys his own bullshit and actually thinks trading for Howell was a good idea and we go into next year with him as the starter.

So if the team ACTUALLY collapses and winds up 3-14 or something like that, it means that the team is completely bereft of talent and/or completely mismanaged.

Howell led thr redskins to 4-13. They drafted a QB now they are a playoff team with a bright future.

The weird part for me is that some of you seem to think that the reason we don't win more games is because of Geno Smith but you ALSO think that if we replace Geno Smith with rookie or cheap filler player, the team will be fighting for No. 1 overall pick. It makes no sense to me.

Geno is a 9 win QB thats where we have been each of his three seasons, assuming we beat chicago.
can we replace him with another QB like fields and win 9 games? Potentially.
I dont want 9 wins and just missing the playoffs i want a superbowl.
Lose out in 25 and draft a top QB in 26 just in time for the defense to be ready for contention.
Done with duct taped rosters and 9 win seasons

 

[flyerhawk]

Thats the point.

Im hoping schneider buys his own bullshit and actually thinks trading for Howell was a good idea and we go into next year with him as the starter.

It's just weird to me that fans would root for their team to lose. I guess that's where I completely diverge from thinking of some of you.

Howell led thr redskins to 4-13. They drafted a QB now they are a playoff team with a bright future.

Unlike the Bears, Pats, Colts, and Panthers. The WTFs were also a team that had essentially given up on their coach last year

I completely get that it's much better to have an elite QB than not have an elite QB. But I think tanking for a lottery ticket is a dangerous strategy.

Geno is a 9 win QB thats where we have been each of his three seasons, assuming we beat chicago.
can we replace him with another QB like fields and win 9 games? Potentially.
I dont want 9 wins and just missing the playoffs i want a superbowl.
Lose out in 25 and draft a top QB in 26 just in time for the defense to be ready for contention.
Done with duct taped rosters and 9 win seasons

But they aren't going to do that. That is not in the interest of the coaches, front office or players. No chance that Jody Allen wants that either.

 

[JMR]

I don't think that keeping Geno for another year or 2 precludes us from looking for the QB of the future.

I agree. If I didn't say it the best way, I was mainly talking about not waiting until the OL is fixed (or better) before finding the next QB. They can be done at the same time with some smart moves.

It's not that my opinion has changed all that much. We got him for basically a couple of pick swaps. So clearly the league looked at him as a middle of the road guy. He's still young but ultimately I don't know if we want the Hawks to be the team that gives him the OJT needed to potentially become a competent QB.

So we agree the jury is still out on Howell... and if he ends up being no better than a marginal backup, we have lost very little as you point out. Very little risk, potential decent reward.

I'm ok with being aggressive to a point but what would being aggressive even entail in this offseason? It's a 2 QB draft and we have no chance of moving up to get either of Ward or Sanders. So after that it's a project QB or JS pulls a rabbit out of the hat with a trade of some sort.

Of those 2, I think Ward is my preference. Though I'll admit I haven't watched Sanders much. I've seen a lot more of Ward with him in the P12. He has good size, good arm, makes lots of NFL throws, can move and extend plays. We have no chance to move up? Yeah, I dunno. I think it all depends if we are willing to pay the price. And whether we are willing to pay the price probably depends on how much we like him. I'm with you more or less: taking some risks is ok, but big gambles aren't a great idea.

 

[MrS]

It's just weird to me that fans would root for their team to lose. I guess that's where I completely diverge from thinking of some of you.

I want schneider gone, we need to bring in someone who understands how to build a roster.

Unlike the Bears, Pats, Colts, and Panthers. The WTFs were also a team that had essentially given up on their coach last year

so if they dont succeed in one year they are the browns in perpetuity?

I completely get that it's much better to have an elite QB than not have an elite QB. But I think tanking for a lottery ticket is a dangerous strategy.

i would prefer risk taking over standing pat and going 8-9 or 9-8 every year. we will never compete with the rams and niners year in and year out.

But they aren't going to do that. That is not in the interest of the coaches, front office or players. No chance that Jody Allen wants that either.

jody has to rip the bandaid off just like paul did before he hired carroll. schneider is not the guy.

I agree. If I didn't say it the best way, I was mainly talking about not waiting until the OL is fixed (or better) before finding the next QB. They can be done at the same time with some smart moves.

the OL is never going to be "fixed", schneider clearly doesnt think its a problem.

 

[Screamin12th]

You clearly don't remember the 1990s. We most certainly WERE the Browns and Jets. We went 14 years without winning a single playoff game and only being in the playoffs one time. The team was on the cusp of leaving town when Paul Allen basically saved it. And Paul Allen was one of the best owners in the NFL largely because he didn't make rash decisions and he left the football people run the team.



How many seasons are you willing to go where we win 6 or fewer games in order to get that QB?




Sure. But also understand that the actions of the coaches when it comes to the QB has an impact of the entire team. Just look at how the Seahawks slowly collapsed because players thought that Russ was treated like he was better than they were.

I think you forgot what was going on in the 90's. Crap coach and a Crap owner that wanted the team to be bad so fans would lose interest so he could MOVE them. What happened as soon as they were "removed" from the picture? Behring owned the team from 1988 to 1997 and not shockingly thats when they turned to shit. In 1988 they won their Division before Behring could trash the team. In 1998 they had the 2nd best defense in the AFC West and the 2nd best offense in the AFC West. Things righted very quickly once Ken Behring was GONE!

 

[flyerhawk]

I agree. If I didn't say it the best way, I was mainly talking about not waiting until the OL is fixed (or better) before finding the next QB. They can be done at the same time with some smart moves.

They have to show that they are serious about improving the team this offseason. Last season they were in a difficult cap situation. This year they are likely going to make some big changes to clear up cap space.

So we agree the jury is still out on Howell... and if he ends up being no better than a marginal backup, we have lost very little as you point out. Very little risk, potential decent reward.

The risk boils down to who will be our 2 QBs next year. If Geno is the presumptive starter again, and I think that is more likely true than not, then we have one spot for our QotF. If that is Howell that's fine. But I'm not sure that is the best path. I would hope the coaches and front office do.

Of those 2, I think Ward is my preference. Though I'll admit I haven't watched Sanders much. I've seen a lot more of Ward with him in the P12. He has good size, good arm, makes lots of NFL throws, can move and extend plays. We have no chance to move up? Yeah, I dunno. I think it all depends if we are willing to pay the price. And whether we are willing to pay the price probably depends on how much we like him. I'm with you more or less: taking some risks is ok, but big gambles aren't a great idea.

If you use a draft value chart, for us to move up to the top 2 we would need to give up this year's 1st, next year's 1st, this year's 2nd next year's 2nd, this year's 3rd and next year's 3rd. Even then we would technically still not be giving equal value, assuming we needed to get into the top 2 which almost surely. The Giants and Raiders are drafting QBs. I don't think there is a shot we do that.

I think there is a much higher likelihood that one of the other QBs excels in the remaining bowl games and/or the all star games and rockets up the draft boards. We seem to have one of those every year.

 

[flyerhawk]

I want schneider gone, we need to bring in someone who understands how to build a roster.

so if they dont succeed in one year they are the browns in perpetuity?

i would prefer risk taking over standing pat and going 8-9 or 9-8 every year. we will never compete with the rams and niners year in and year out.

jody has to rip the bandaid off just like paul did before he hired carroll. schneider is not the guy.

the OL is never going to be "fixed", schneider clearly doesnt think its a problem.

I'm ok with moving on from Schneider. I doubt it happens this off season though.

You act like the Browns are the only team that is perpetually struggling to compete. The truth is MOST clubs perpetually struggle to compete except for a handful of teams that have strong management, like the Packers or Hall of QBs like the Chiefs.

 

[flyerhawk]

I think you forgot what was going on in the 90's. Crap coach and a Crap owner that wanted the team to be bad so fans would lose interest so he could MOVE them. What happened as soon as they were "removed" from the picture? Behring owned the team from 1988 to 1997 and not shockingly thats when they turned to shit. In 1988 they won their Division before Behring could trash the team. In 1998 they had the 2nd best defense in the AFC West and the 2nd best offense in the AFC West. Things righted very quickly once Ken Behring was GONE!

You said that this team has never been through a long period of mediocrity. We did. In fact, the team was more or less average to bad for most of its history until Holmgren. And it was straight up trash during the Behring era. @Anointed One @JMR have been chatting about the Hawks since those late 90s era teams. It was tough to watch some of those years.

 

[MrS]

I'm ok with moving on from Schneider. I doubt it happens this off season though.

You act like the Browns are the only team that is perpetually struggling to compete. The truth is MOST clubs perpetually struggle to compete except for a handful of teams that have strong management, like the Packers or Hall of QBs like the Chiefs.

Most teams struggle so lets stick with the 9-8 crew that will never get over the top. Maybe we could bring in Marvin lewis he knows a thing or two about perpetual mediocrity.
Turn this team into the mariners, that would be awesome

 

[flyerhawk]

Most teams struggle so lets stick with the 9-8 crew that will never get over the top. Maybe we could bring in Marvin lewis he knows a thing or two about perpetual mediocrity.
Turn this team into the mariners, that would be awesome

This is literally Macdonald's first season.

 

[Anointed One]

You said that this team has never been through a long period of mediocrity. We did. In fact, the team was more or less average to bad for most of its history until Holmgren. And it was straight up trash during the Behring era. @Anointed One @JMR have been chatting about the Hawks since those late 90s era teams. It was tough to watch some of those years.

Thanks for the reminder, Flyer...

We were a tough watch... 2-14 in '92 but at least we had Tez to root for that year when won DPOTY on a 2-14 team... That's how dominating he was...

All those years trying to find our QB sucked... Since 1988 it took us 14 years to find a legit QB that wasn't a stop gap guy... Dave Krieg stunk his last 2-3 years in Seattle, which began their downward spiral... We didn't have a legit QB that we felt good about leading us into the postseason until we got Matt Hasselback...

Here is a reminder of whom we tried to replace Dave Krieg with until we got MH as our starter in '01...

• Kelly Stauffer (First round pick 1:6 by the St Louis Cardinals in '87... He sat out a year due to contract dispute and the Hawks traded for him in '88)
• Dan McGwire (First round pick 1:16)
• Stan Gelbaugh
• Rick Mirer (First Round pick 1:2)
• John Friesz
• Brock Huard (3rd Round 3:12)
• Warren Moon (Past his prime)
• Jon Kitna
• Post/during Matt Hasselback
  • Seneca Wallace (3rd Rounder)
  • David Greene (3rd Rounder)
  • Russell Wilson (2012) took almost until 2012 for us to find a legit franchise QB since 1988...

Took us 11 QB's until we found RW...

Some of you make it out to be an easy transition to find a new QB... Using teams like Washington as an example when they drafted J. Daniels... Let me ask you this, how long did it take Washington to find a franchise QB (assuming J. Daniels is that franchise QB?... I'll remind you here - they haven't had a QB play for more than 4 straight seasons since Mark Rypien did in the early 90's... That's 21 years according to my math... So to use them as an example of "Look how easy it is" is ridiculous imo... The Chicago Bears, Cleveland Browns are continueing to see how hard it is as well...

 

[Anointed One]

Most teams struggle so lets stick with the 9-8 crew that will never get over the top. Maybe we could bring in Marvin lewis he knows a thing or two about perpetual mediocrity.
Turn this team into the mariners, that would be awesome

Dude... You want to fire people and start over it seems every year... You can't run a good business model using that logic...

 

[Screamin12th]

You said that this team has never been through a long period of mediocrity. We did. In fact, the team was more or less average to bad for most of its history until Holmgren. And it was straight up trash during the Behring era. @Anointed One @JMR have been chatting about the Hawks since those late 90s era teams. It was tough to watch some of those years.

from 1978-1988 the Hawks were in 1st or 2nd 6 times and in that span went to the playoffs 4 times. Thats not average or Less than average and not close to bad. From 1989-1997 they were 4th or worse 6 times. ( 5 team division ) That was the bad years. The Hawks were the most successful expansion franchise ever before they changed how expansion worked helping teams out HUGELY. The team was 14 -34 under Flores. From 1978 to 1988 the Hawks had winning seasons in 7 of those years.. again thats not average. I think most here were to young to remember the 1976-1988 season but not me. I may have been young but i was playing football as soon as i went to grade school ( 5 years old ) so football became important to me.

A average team doesnt make the playoffs ( normally ), a Average team doesnt have winning seasons ( Above .500 ) they are .500 at best.