Mariners trade deadline/rumors thread

[SeattleCoug]

But they already got “rid” of Montero. It was a pure ego thing that Jerry had to trade him. That is one of gripes. If Toro was a priority the Mariners have relievers on the roster and plenty of prospect depth. The second one is pretending Seattle is some small market team and having the losers mentality of oh well Graveman was a free agent and we will lose him. Let alone he is “at the top of his game” so let’s trade him. Who knows exactly what he ceiling is, but it sure has been a lot better after surgery and him going to the bullpen and becoming high leverage guy.

The Tampa comparison goes back to the loser mentality and kind of the point of Seattle isn’t Tampa.

I don’t think anyone can say they are anything other than slightly better but that isn’t because of Toro it is because of Anderson. But they aren’t as good as they should be. I am not saying they needed to go out and get rid of one of their top prospects to catch the Astros but with their performance up until Monday the goal changed from next year to trying catch the A’s and sneak into the wildcard.

Your last part is totally true and maybe they will shock us all and spend. But Castillo at most = Graveman and Toro is an unknown but can’t we at least agree he < Seager?

Sorry about the rant. It isn’t so much that I don’t like Toro, I just don’t get why it was an either or with Graveman and Castillo nor do I understand Jerry literally saying he is punting on the season. They got two full months left and the Mariners/Astros/A’s got like 20 something games against each other left.

Houston wanted Montero and a trade needed happen that day or he would have hit waivers and anyone could have grabbed him. Whether this is true or not, it’s what was said by Dipoto.

Honestly I completely get being frustrated by the optics of how things went down. The Mariners necessarily haven’t earned the benefit of the doubt. I guess for me I’m just trying to see the other side because I’m more or less exhausted arguing the other way. With the inactivity the previous winter, they more or less made their bed for this year. Yes they have outplayed expectations and are in the mix but even with more additions WC2 is still far from a sure thing. That’s what makes it a tricky spot.
Dipoto could have handled things better in terms of comments post trade kind of insuating more things would happen. His mouth is what annoys me as much as anything he does.
But I think they can help themselves a lot more this winter then they could have this week and they better or I will be back arguing the other way

 

[SeattleCoug]

Someone in this organization pissed on his Cheerios or something because his Mariner takes are consistent. Outside of Nightengale he’s the one who’s takes I respect the least.

They may not be winners but they arguably came out of this week with a better bullpen arm for this year and next year, an improved infield for this year and next year and improved the rotation. They could have done more but I stand by them not being losers. Just a poor take imo

 

[NWinAZ]

Houston wanted Montero and a trade needed happen that day or he would have hit waivers and anyone could have grabbed him. Whether this is true or not, it’s what was said by Dipoto.

Since I don't believe a word that comes out of DIPoto's mouth, here is my rebuttal. Trade Montero for Smith that day and agree to the Graveman/Toro deal for the end of the week so 1) it doesn't hit after the best game of the year. 2) they have the so-called second part of the deal worked out which I have no doubt was him thinking he was getting Merrifield and either Long and/or Moore was included in the deal.

They may not be winners but they arguably came out of this week with a better bullpen arm for this year and next year, an improved infield for this year and next year and improved the rotation. They could have done more but I stand by them not being losers. Just a poor take imo

My take: If you didn't gain ground on the teams ahead of you, you came out losers. We weren't catching Astros so we pass on what they did. But we lost ground via talent acquisition to A's that are ahead of us and I believe Yankees gained in talent over us and may pass it by mid-August unless we can keep playing the Rangers.

But in the end, who cares. I mean that. We are playing for the future and someday the future may actually arrive.

 

[returnofjakedog]

I heard massive backlash from fans on the local sports radio yesterday. So many "F*** Dipoto" type comments coming in because of the lack of a big move.

I get that people want to make a run at the playoffs. I get that baseball is different in the trade deadline approaches than other sports. But 1) they are still in the playoff race, and continue to win series and exceed expectations, and 2) this year was supposed to be about the rebuild, and not contention.
The over-under was 68-70 wins this year. To me, this season has been gravy as I came in expecting the worst.

Being a M's fan has been a rough ride for decades. I was absolutely thrilled to see them actually go full in on a rebuild a couple of years ago, which is something this perpetually mediocre franchise has never done before (they should have started it 2 years earlier imo). I can see both sides of the arguement but I think I am happy they committed to the continuing rebuild mindset instead of starting to move prospects for a run this year.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Not sure what the general consensus is so far regarding how the Mariners did but I felt like Larry Stone had a good take:

Grading the Mariners at the trade deadline depends on how you feel about Jerry Dipoto’s rebuilding plan

The Mariners' timetable for playoff contention very likely was pushed back one more season by Jerry Dipoto’s insistence on remaining dedicated to the rebuild rather than risk sacrificing any of the future for immediate gain.

www.seattletimes.com

I personally don't believe this team is nearly as good as the record indicates and that even if we went all in and added say Whit Merrifield and Jose Berrios, we'd still fall short of the playoffs at the expense of some of our top prospects. It was very clearly a sellers market and I think it may have been prudent for Dipoto not to go all in.

The moves made were pretty much adding a back of the rotation starter, a controllable closer and a guy who could potentially replace Seager next year. Given how aggressive some teams were, if the Mariners want to use their prospects as trade bait, perhaps the offseason would be a better market.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Also random but what is Dipoto's infatuation with Joe Smith?

I swear to God every year since he has been with the Mariners I've heard about him either trying to sign him or trade for him.

 

[NWinAZ]

People keep saying we are ahead of schedule so not the time to go for it. There is no such thing as a schedule to the playoffs. It only matters when you are in contention for the playoffs and that is a here and now year to year proposition. As we have seen with these so called prospects, there is zero guarantee even one will be of use nonetheless several as we still need.

'Rebuild' is a illusion. There is no such thing as a rebuild. If people mean we should draft well, develop well, and trade older players for younger, better players well that is not a rebuild it is actually standard baseball blueprint for winning organizations for decades.

Do I think we are going to win it all this year? No. Do know we will be closer to a playoff spot at this point in the year gain over the next 3 or 4 years? No. So when are we saving the go for it strategy for? 20 year drought, but we are sure comfortable at waiting for better days ahead. Cool.

 

[wazzu31]

Houston wanted Montero and a trade needed happen that day or he would have hit waivers and anyone could have grabbed him. Whether this is true or not, it’s what was said by Dipoto.

Honestly I completely get being frustrated by the optics of how things went down. The Mariners necessarily haven’t earned the benefit of the doubt. I guess for me I’m just trying to see the other side because I’m more or less exhausted arguing the other way. With the inactivity the previous winter, they more or less made their bed for this year. Yes they have outplayed expectations and are in the mix but even with more additions WC2 is still far from a sure thing. That’s what makes it a tricky spot.
Dipoto could have handled things better in terms of comments post trade kind of insuating more things would happen. His mouth is what annoys me as much as anything he does.
But I think they can help themselves a lot more this winter then they could have this week and they better or I will be back arguing the other way

But it isn’t true and that is 99.9% fact Jerry went into damage control when he realized he made a move that not a single person could understand. Smith and Montero were swapped, Toro and Graveman were swapped. The Astros could have waited 1 day if they wanted Montero because there wasn’t a single team who would have claimed him.

I guess I didn’t preface my argument but i did eventually get to that it was my gut reaction to the trade. Taking a step back and if it were any other team I would completely understand it. Did the Mariners need offense, for sure. But just like 2014, I think it was, where the bullpen was great, they ran out of gas. Just as a guarantee they will again this year because they will be massively over taxed when the dog days hit. Needing a future 3B/2B or whatever his role will end up is great but it had nothing to do with the Castillo trade. In Jerry’s eye it did because Shenton became expendable.

The 2nd wildcard is huge. I don’t think any fan wanted Jerry to give up any top prospect or even wanted to. They could have kept Graveman, gotten Castillo, got Anderson and if they fell off in September sure fans would have been disappointed but Frazier was dealt pre Monday and Merrifield didn’t end up going anywhere. The Mariners are within reach this year of a playoff and there isn’t a guarantee next year at the deadline they will be because the entire pitching staff is going to be filled with Gilbert and a bunch of guys coming off bad seasons, rookie and guys coming back from injury.

 

[NWinAZ]

I do like the moves because we can still sign Graveman in the offseason if that is the move fans still want. I just don't like the moves because they have minor 2021 upside when we are actually mathematically within reach.

I hope Toro and Castillo become studs. I also don't think the players we add will determine if we make it or not this year. I think it will be the players we didn't add.

 

[SeattleCoug]

I’m not gonna disagree that these moves are likely not enough for a 2021 playoff spot. The Yankees, Blue Jays and As made more impactful moves and so I expect the Ms to finish behind those teams. I think it’s also fair to criticize Dipoto for mishandling the market a bit and for the comments he made. It really was a sellers market by a lot which would have been better for the Mariners if they were 10 under and could have dealt Haniger and Seager.
Really this offseason should be the test. Dipoto really hasn’t been given money to spend yet and it better happen this offseason

 

[returnofjakedog]

People keep saying we are ahead of schedule so not the time to go for it. There is no such thing as a schedule to the playoffs. It only matters when you are in contention for the playoffs and that is a here and now year to year proposition. As we have seen with these so called prospects, there is zero guarantee even one will be of use nonetheless several as we still need.

'Rebuild' is a illusion. There is no such thing as a rebuild. If people mean we should draft well, develop well, and trade older players for younger, better players well that is not a rebuild it is actually standard baseball blueprint for winning organizations for decades.

Do I think we are going to win it all this year? No. Do know we will be closer to a playoff spot at this point in the year gain over the next 3 or 4 years? No. So when are we saving the go for it strategy for? 20 year drought, but we are sure comfortable at waiting for better days ahead. Cool.

I don't necessarily disagree with you on many of your points but your "no such thing as a rebuild" comment where you then go on to state the actual blueprint of what a rebuild is but somehow imply it is not a rebuild is strange.

I have watched the Ms ever since their first season when I was a little tyke and they have never, ever done a complete "rebuild" (or whatever you want to call it) like the Astros went through a few years back, until the last couple of years where they finally bit the bullet and went all in on the youth movement.

Semantics aside, imo it is best to stay the course, and not unload prospects for a run this season, particularly when they are already making a run regardless of major impact trades. It isn't a popular opinion among many fans but I believe it gives the team a better chance at longer term success.

Anyways, we obviously disagree on this issue, and only time will tell if it was the correct the choice or not. I do disagree with your "no such thing as a rebuild" statement. I've seen the differences in team building approaches, and I consider the last two years or so as an actual rebuild.
No, no one can know what will happen in the future but that is why you put the best personal in charge of guiding the ship and making personal decisions. That is why the huge backlash against Dipoto at this trade deadline is laughable to me. If the team was bad, as they were predicted, then no one would want to sell, but since they are exceeding expectations then suddenly the GM is horrible for continuing to follow the plan that has led the team to this same earlier than expected success?? Punishment due for positive results??

I just woke up so hopefully this rambling is semi-coherent.

 

[seahawksfan234]

People keep saying we are ahead of schedule so not the time to go for it. There is no such thing as a schedule to the playoffs. It only matters when you are in contention for the playoffs and that is a here and now year to year proposition. As we have seen with these so called prospects, there is zero guarantee even one will be of use nonetheless several as we still need.

'Rebuild' is a illusion. There is no such thing as a rebuild. If people mean we should draft well, develop well, and trade older players for younger, better players well that is not a rebuild it is actually standard baseball blueprint for winning organizations for decades.

Do I think we are going to win it all this year? No. Do know we will be closer to a playoff spot at this point in the year gain over the next 3 or 4 years? No. So when are we saving the go for it strategy for? 20 year drought, but we are sure comfortable at waiting for better days ahead. Cool.

I can't disagree with you, and I think you and Larry Stone are on the same page if you read that article I sent.

I know you'll disagree with this and bring up some counterarguments I can't refute, but my perspective is that there's no reason to go all in when I genuinely don't think that would even result in the Mariners landing the second wildcard spot. Sure, prospects are prospects, and many don't pan out. But the way I look at it is that they are also trade chips. Why throw away those trade chips when realistically, this team will not make the playoffs this year - even if we had a fantastic deadline.

It's a defeatist perspective when it comes to the 2021 season, I know. But I do feel like the best move is to go all in on free agents and trades this offseason.

Eh, fuck if I know? If I'm wrong and the Mariners are still in the playoff race at the end of the season, I will concede that Dipoto should've gone all in. Hindsight is always 20/20 and if that is the case, that shows that Dipoto is as bad at evaluating the team as I am.

 

[seahawksfan234]

I do like the moves because we can still sign Graveman in the offseason if that is the move fans still want. I just don't like the moves because they have minor 2021 upside when we are actually mathematically within reach.

I hope Toro and Castillo become studs. I also don't think the players we add will determine if we make it or not this year. I think it will be the players we didn't add.

Based on how emotional Graveman was after being traded, I have to assume he'd want to come back if he doesn't harbor any hard feelings toward the organization. If he loves this team so much, hopefully he can blow some games for us when we face the Astros.

 

[wazzu31]

Not sure what the general consensus is so far regarding how the Mariners did but I felt like Larry Stone had a good take:

Grading the Mariners at the trade deadline depends on how you feel about Jerry Dipoto’s rebuilding plan

The Mariners' timetable for playoff contention very likely was pushed back one more season by Jerry Dipoto’s insistence on remaining dedicated to the rebuild rather than risk sacrificing any of the future for immediate gain.

www.seattletimes.com

I personally don't believe this team is nearly as good as the record indicates and that even if we went all in and added say Whit Merrifield and Jose Berrios, we'd still fall short of the playoffs at the expense of some of our top prospects. It was very clearly a sellers market and I think it may have been prudent for Dipoto not to go all in.

The moves made were pretty much adding a back of the rotation starter, a controllable closer and a guy who could potentially replace Seager next year. Given how aggressive some teams were, if the Mariners want to use their prospects as trade bait, perhaps the offseason would be a better market.

Problem with Stone’s argument is he makes great points when with the rebuild then why they shouldn’t have done the Graveman trade. No one asked him to make a big splash where it cost them one their of top prospects.

You have “prospects” but you also have untouchables, eventually in order to make the big club better he has to deal some of the prospects because there isn’t room for all of them. You have Hancock, Julio, Kirby and Marte, those are the only untouchables. Every other prospect is up for trade. He has to trade from the abundance of pitching and outfield depth. Merrifield nor Berrios would’ve cost them one of the untouchables.

In the grand scheme of things his deadline was flipping Shenton for Toro which would have been fine pre A’s series. Post Monday that deal should have been Castillo to the Astros, Toro to the Mariners and Shenton to the Rays with the Mariners keeping Graveman…a shitty pitcher like Montero should not have dictated Jerry making a move before the deadline.

 

[ulmax]

these guys are the best 3B guys...in AAA


from cuba..texas rangers

1 AndyIbanez 3B	RR	27	105	20	37	11	1	6	25	9	16	1	0	.352	.410	.648	1.058
2 AbrahamToro 3B	SUG	17	54	10	19	5	1	2	11	11	8	2	1	.352	.485	.593	1.078

AAAwest...toro does not come up on a normal search...cuz he only had....54 at bats..then they called him up to sit on ..the bench..
5th pick of the astros..in 2016...Seminole State JC, Seminole State JC, OK..i have scouted him..before..so..when depoto traded for him...i knew..who he was
i just never thought houston would give him up

1 TaylorMotter 3B	ABQ	61	194	51	66	15	1	24	55	45	43	0	0	.340	.465	.799	1.264

abq...is san diego AAA...yes..it is the same motter

6 JakeBurger 3B	CLT	46	182	31	58	15	1	11	38	13	50	0	0	.319	.369	.593	.962

AAA east

• Draft: 2017, Chicago White Sox, Round: 1, Overall Pick: 11......dipoto..would have to give kelenic..for this guy
• • College: Missouri State
  • MLB Debut: 7/02/20
    
    
    
    born: 6/29/1998 in Manati, Puerto Rico

JoseMiranda 3B	STP	29	123	30	43	10	0	9	24	13	23	0	1	.350	.413	.650	1.063

AAA east
Draft: 2016, Minnesota Twins, Round: CB-B, Overall...

• High School: Leadership Christian Academy, Guaynabo, PR

 

[ulmax]

well to me...giving up the future...for immediate...gains and then fall flat on there face...means..this guy..needs ....a re- hab..program

stay ..off..the stuff...dude


By
Larry Stone
Seattle Times columnist
Once the chaotic lead-up to Friday’s MLB trade deadline ended without any more deals by the Mariners, a reality emerged.
Simply this: Your reaction to the three trades the M’s made this week — and even more to the point, the numerous ones they could have, but didn’t — will boil down to your belief in the grand plan of general manager Jerry Dipoto.

 

[ulmax]

Problem with Stone’s argument is he makes great points when with the rebuild then why they shouldn’t have done the Graveman trade. No one asked him to make a big splash where it cost them one their of top prospects.

You have “prospects” but you also have untouchables, eventually in order to make the big club better he has to deal some of the prospects because there isn’t room for all of them. You have Hancock, Julio, Kirby and Marte, those are the only untouchables. Every other prospect is up for trade. He has to trade from the abundance of pitching and outfield depth. Merrifield nor Berrios would’ve cost them one of the untouchables.

In the grand scheme of things his deadline was flipping Shenton for Toro which would have been fine pre A’s series. Post Monday that deal should have been Castillo to the Astros, Toro to the Mariners and Shenton to the Rays with the Mariners keeping Graveman…a shitty pitcher like Montero should not have dictated Jerry making a move before the deadline.

In the grand scheme of things his deadline was flipping Shenton for Toro which would have been fine pre A’s series. Post Monday that deal should have been Castillo to the Astros, Toro to the Mariners and Shenton to the Rays with the Mariners keeping Graveman…a shitty pitcher like Montero should not have dictated Jerry making a move before the deadline.

yeah...im ok with it either way...toro..is as good a prospect as shenton...and plays 2B..and is at the mlb..lvl...now..so lets compare..toro..and shenton

 

[ulmax]

toro

Season	Team	LG	Level	G	AB	R	H	TB	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	IBB	SO	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	GO/AO
2021	SUG	AAA W	AAA	17	54	10	19	32	5	1	2	11	11	0	8	2	1	.352	.485	.593	1.078	1.08
2019	2 teams	-	Minors	114	442	82	143	233	31	4	17	80	58	2	82	4	2	.324	.411	.527	.938	0.43
2019	CC	TEX	AA	98	376	65	115	193	22	4	16	70	48	2	77	4	1	.306	.393	.513	.906	0.40
2019	RR	PCL	AAA	16	66	17	28	40	9	0	1	10	10	0	5	0	1	.424	.506	.606	1.112	0.56
2018	2 teams	-	Minors	133	474	70	117	206	35	3	16	78	62	1	108	8	4	.247	.345	.435	.779	0.73
2018	BC	CAR	A(Adv)	83	296	54	76	140	20	1	14	56	45	0	62	5	1	.257	.361	.473	.834	0.77
2018	CC	TEX	AA	50	178	16	41	66	15	2	2	22	17	1	46	3	3	.230	.317	.371	.688	0.67

 

[ulmax]

toro cont
�

2017	2 teams	-	Minors	69	240	46	59	119	11	2	15	33	40	0	51	3	3	.246	.364	.496	.860	0.66
2017	TRI	NYP	A(Short)	32	106	21	31	57	8	0	6	16	19	0	21	1	3	.292	.414	.538	.952	1.00
2017	QC	MID	A(Full)	37	134	25	28	62	3	2	9	17	21	0	30	2	0	.209	.323	.463	.786	0.48
2016	GRN	APP	ROK	44	177	20	45	57	6	3	0	19	10	0	31	2	1	.254	.301	.322	.623	1.17
Minors Career	-	-	Minors	377	1387	228	383	647	88	13	50	221	181	3	280	19	11	.276	.370	.466	.836	0.69

Advanced Career Stats​

• Austin P. Shenton
• Status: Active
• Born: 1/22/1998 in Spokane, WA
• Draft: 2019, Seattle Mariners, Round: 5, Overall Pick: 156....toro..5th pick 2016..by houston
• College: Florida International

 

[ulmax]

shenton

3 teams	-	Minors	70	277	61	81	152	29	3	12	61	45	0	73	1	0	.292	.405	.549	.954	1.43
2021	EVE	A+ W	A+	57	224	55	66	129	24	3	11	53	41	0	62	1	0	.295	.418	.576	.994	1.55
2021	ARK	AA C	AA	10	43	6	14	22	5	0	1	8	4	0	10	0	0	.326	.396	.512	.908	1.38
2021	MTG	AA S	AA	3	10	0	1	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	1	0	0	.100	.100	.100	.200	0.60
2019	2 teams	-	Minors	53	198	29	59	101	17	2	7	36	19	1	44	0	0	.298	.376	.510	.886	0.07
2019	EVE	NWL	A(Short)	21	79	16	29	47	10	1	2	16	8	0	15	0	0	.367	.446	.595	1.041	0.10
2019	WV	SAL	A(Full)	32	119	13	30	54	7	1	5	20	11	1	29	0	0	.252	.328	.454	.782	0.06
Minors Career	-	-	Minors	123	475	90	140	253	46	5	19	97	64	1	117	1	0	.295	.393	.533	.926	0.72