Michael Jordan is a fraud

[Darrell Green Fan]

I’m definitely NOT one of the people who thinks losing in the finals is a demerit against your legacy. But 6 rings is a lot and more than all other GOAT contenders (except Kareem, tied)

I still think your take goes way too far regarding him fading from the debate. He will always be in the conversation

I still maintain Kareem is underrated. He has the hardware, he won championships at every level. He had the most unstoppable shot in the game's history and was the all time leading scorer before Lebron who was obviously aided by the 3 point shot.

 

[tlance]

Totally agree with all of this, which again goes to my point that so many who go with Lebron as the GOAT never saw MJ play.

Another thing I'm torn on is the Celtics and Lakers of the 80's obviously are stacked with all time greats. Just awesome teams. But what would they be today with the athletes just so much better now? Obviously the game has changed with all the 3's but I have a hard time believing Magic would not still be Magic, Bird never relied on athleticism and I believe could still fire step back daggers. Both of those teams, especially the Celtics, passed the ball so well. But how would they look against this Celtics defense that is so long and quick and would take away many of those passes. Thoughts?

Magic and Bird would be great in any era.

Magic is pretty clear cut #4 overall behind MJ, LeBron, and Kareem.

And it used to be MJ, Kareem and Magic.

But LeBron is like Magic 2.0. A more athletic, better scoring better defending variant.

Since the original is a top 5 all time player, you pretty much have to put LeBron significantly higher.

It is MJ and LeBron 1A and 1B tied at the top for me.

IMO, the only wrong answer is to say 1 clearly ahead of the other. It’s very close.

 

[redskinsfan1963]

Not all time great Lakers.

But when you do Lakers against the other 29 franchises?

I think that is fair game.

jabbar/west,wilt ,magic?

 

[rmilia1]

Totally agree with all of this, which again goes to my point that so many who go with Lebron as the GOAT never saw MJ play.

Another thing I'm torn on is the Celtics and Lakers of the 80's obviously are stacked with all time greats. Just awesome teams. But what would they be today with the athletes just so much better now? Obviously the game has changed with all the 3's but I have a hard time believing Magic would not still be Magic, Bird never relied on athleticism and I believe could still fire step back daggers. Both of those teams, especially the Celtics, passed the ball so well. But how would they look against this Celtics defense that is so long and quick and would take away many of those passes. Thoughts?

I think the greats are great in every era in a sport like basketball where the game isn't fundamentally different

 

[tlance]

I think the greats are great in every era in a sport like basketball where the game isn't fundamentally different.

Not any era.

Cant even measure the players from the 60s and before because competition was just so limited.

Wilt probably. Not convinced about anyone else from that era and before.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Magic and Bird would be great in any era.

Magic is pretty clear cut #4 overall behind MJ, LeBron, and Kareem.

And it used to be MJ, Kareem and Magic.

But LeBron is like Magic 2.0. A more athletic, better scoring better defending variant.

Since the original is a top 5 all time player, you pretty much have to put LeBron significantly higher.

It is MJ and LeBron 1A and 1B tied at the top for me.

IMO, the only wrong answer is to say 1 clearly ahead of the other. It’s very close.

I do believe MJ is the GOAT but I also believe it's also really close. I also agree Bird and Magic would still be great but would those teams beat today's champion?

 

[tlance]

I do believe MJ is the GOAT but I also believe it's also really close. I also agree Bird and Magic would still be great but would those teams beat today's champion?

If you put the best version of the Showtime Lakers in a Time Machine and matched them up with the 2024 Celtics?

No. I don’t believe so.

But Magic and Bird would be superstars today for sure.

 

[trojanfan12]

If you put the best version of the Showtime Lakers in a Time Machine and matched them up with the 2024 Celtics?

No. I don’t believe so.

But Magic and Bird would be superstars today for sure.

Would depend on how well the Lakers could adjust to defending the 3. which they were versatile enough to do. Problem for the C's would be who do they have that could handle Kareem, Magic and Worthy.

I think the best Bird Celtics team beats this years Celtics too.

 

[msgkings322]

Would depend on how well the Lakers could adjust to defending the 3. which they were versatile enough to do. Problem for the C's would be who do they have that could handle Kareem, Magic and Worthy.

I think the best Bird Celtics team beats this years Celtics too.

Agreed I list those teams (86 Celtics 85-87 Lakers) as top 5 all time. This year’s Celtics are like an almost but not quite super team

I do think it’s valid to consider the increased athleticism of the league now vs the 80s. That’s a long time

 

[tlance]

Would depend on how well the Lakers could adjust to defending the 3. which they were versatile enough to do. Problem for the C's would be who do they have that could handle Kareem, Magic and Worthy.

I think the best Bird Celtics team beats this years Celtics too.

This years Celtics aren’t in the conversation as being anywhere near as good as those teams relative to their eras.

But players are just better today.

And IMO, playing with current rules I think it would be really hard for any great team from the 80s to win today.

Generally speaking, I am betting on speed and skill winning out over size and skill in todays game.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

This years Celtics aren’t in the conversation as being anywhere near as good as those teams relative to their eras.

But players are just better today.

And IMO, playing with current rules I think it would be really hard for any great team froBut m the 80s to win today.

Generally speaking, I am betting on speed and skill winning out over size and skill in todays game.

This is my lean as well. Those 80's teams never faced the long, quick defense of today. They would still be good, I'm not convinced the '86 Celtics lose to this Celtics team, but overall teams are just better today. .

 

[UK Cowboy]

Well we already knew Bron was GOAT regardless. This helps the argument

 

[Janus]

Well that settles it. MJ no longer the goat. Probably Top 15 to 20 now. Pippen carried him

A closer look at Michael Jordan's 1988 DPOY award raises questions about its validity. Has LeBron James been chasing a ghost?

New research reveals Jordan's Defensive Player of the Year season likely included home-biased stats.

sports.yahoo.com

Absolutely Truth, welcome aboard.

 

[theprofessor]

Karl Malone would win the 98' Finals if Stockton destroyed MVP MJ like Kyrie-Curry in 2016.. Malone would destroy the 90's Bulls if he had a sidekick that outplayed MVP's like Steph Curry or "80's MJ" (Anthony Edwards), while being referred to as "the most skilled player ever", or "the most talented player ever" like Kyrie was.. Lebron had the meaningless statistical anomaly of leading everyone by tiny margins of 0.2 steals and 1 rebound in the 16' Finals, which overrates this ring and ignores the fact that anyone would win with a sidekick that destroyed the league MVP, while getting a critical suspension in a closeout game as well.

Malone is not as good as Lebron, but people overrate Lebron's best works compared to Malone's, and we already know that Malone's peak of 3 straight first-team defense from 97-99' and 3 straight MVP's (except the 2nd to MJ) is on-par with any peak that Lebron ever had.

And it's important to distinguish their positions.. Power forwards fit perfectly with point guards, so Lebron cannot play power forward or he would've done so when Westbrook arrived - he would've had the perfect fit that bigs always have with ball-handlers, but instead he had the worst fit of all-time with guys like Westbrook, Hughes, Ingram, IT or even Wade - it's always just 2 ball-dominators clashing... The bad fits with ball-handlers confirms that Lebron only has a point guard skillset that predictably clashes with other ball-handlers and needs ready-made shooters like Mo, Kyrie or Korver.. But regardless of whether the Karl Malone physique has a PG skillset or a PF skillset, it's still just Karl Malone, aka vastly inferior to MJ.

People forget that AD turned the Lakers from lottery to champion by leading the team in scoring for the regular season and playoffs, while turning the defense from worst to first.. Accordingly, for Lebron to win as 1st option, he needed 2 star teammates and sidekicks that made the Finals without him, which are both demonstrations of the superior help that his weaker chemistry and brand of ball needs..

The stats tell the story.. Aside from the last 3 years when he got old, the vast majority of Lebron's career showed a lack of expert jumpshooting skill to score while the ball moves (off-ball).. Consequently, Lebron style was high-scoring, ball-dominance (live-dribbling) and when one player dribbles that much, it turns teammates into spot-up shooter - this is a statistical fact because Lebron reduces teammates' assists (playmaking) and increases their assisted rate (play-finishing)... The imposition of spot-up roles and the "down-hill" skillset isn't 5-man basketball and prevents good chemistry, which makes Lebron a talent-based winner (more help needed).. The lack of chemistry also prevents a great-performing cast, aka great team/Finals records.

History shows that high-scoring ball-dominators struggle with chemistry, while expert jumpshooters and fundamental bigs can score a lot while the ball moves, so they have a history of better chemistry.. Curry won 4 chips in 6 years, or Duncan won 3 in 5, and MJ won 6 in 7, but a high-scoring ball-dominator like Lebron never had a stretch of mostly winning with a cast, and therefore mostly loses with every cast... Furthermore, history shows that Lebron mostly lost when he got help, while MJ mostly won - MJ was unbeatable the instant he got 1 all-star, while Lebron mostly lost with 2 all-stars.

 

[Picklerick 2.0]

Yeah, Wilt is the best ever and will never be topped. The species is devolving at a rapid pace and he would have slaughtered in any era with his brain as well as his strength, size, and speed.

It's hard for new basketball casuals to admit.

There is no such thing as devolving. Evolution isn't an end game it is a constant adaptation and traits are either plus or negative depending on various stressors.

 

[trojanfan12]

There is no such thing as devolving. Evolution isn't an end game it is a constant adaptation and traits are either plus or negative depending on various stressors.

Devo disagrees.

 

[eaglesnut]

There is no such thing as devolving. Evolution isn't an end game it is a constant adaptation and traits are either plus or negative depending on various stressors.

Look at this guy. Devolving so fast his brain doesn't even notice.

 

[Picklerick 2.0]

Look at this guy. Devolving so fast his brain doesn't even notice.

If this keeps up, in about a hundred years I'll become...........an eagles fan.

 

[eaglesnut]

If this keeps up, in about a hundred years I'll become...........an eagles fan.

Just as long as you know Wilt is, was, and will forever be, the best ever.

 

[Picklerick 2.0]

Just as long as you know Wilt is, was, and will forever be, the best ever.

Now you can read the future? No wonder you geniuses chucked batteries at some poor guy paid to be Santa.