Interesting SI article. Interchange LeBron-n-MJ's names and look at some facts

[trojanfan12]

For years and years Jordan didn't have an ounce of talent around him. I didn't see him leaving to go form some all-star team. I'm sorry, but I don't like what's happening to the game. All-stars teaming up just so they can win one... and for Lebron to hold a press conference to make his announcement like some high school kid on signing day. I can't wait for the day that he leaves basketball.

At least he didn't do the 3 hats thing!!

 

[gpm1976]

At least he didn't do the 3 hats thing!!

Oh, yeah.. that was horrible!

 

[gpm1976]

The worst part about this is that, for some reason, people count it as a negative in his career that he lost those finals. It makes him 2-2 (for now) and if they lose he'll have a losing record in the finals and blah blah blah.

Somehow it would have been better for his legacy just losing to the pistons in the ECF as they should have. Instead, he carried them to the finals, and is criticized for losing to a team that was far superior. The cavs had no business being there, and it should be a CREDIT to LeBron that they were there, not a detriment.

Another fantastic piece of information is that Kobe won the finals MVP in the last ship. and LeBron played better vs the celtics than Kobe did. Yet Kobe is a "winner" and LeBron "quit". Hey guys, did you think the team had anything to do with it?

Kobe game 7 goes 6-24 scores 23 points with 15 rebounds and he is a winner, does whatever it takes to win.

LeBron game 6 of ECF goes 8-21 scores 27 points 19 rebounds 10 assists and he quit?


LeBron vs the celtics in that series:

27 pts 9 rebs 7 assists 2 stls 1blk shot 45% AND WE SAY HE QUIT? HE FAILED? HE CHOKED?

Kobe vs the celtics in the finals:

29 pts 8 rebs 4 assists 2stls 0.7blk shot 40% AND HE WAS THE FINALS MVP??

Now Kobe deserved every bit of the MVP, im not ragging on kobe. Im using kobe to point out the fact that we have a ridiculous double standard toward LeBron. LeBron played every bit as good as Kobe, if not better. But his team wasn't there. But everyone wants to lose sight of that and just put it on LeBron.

BUT STILL. Even worse that that, my favorite LeBron choked story of all time is the 09 ECF vs orlando.

The guys averaged 39 pts 8 rebs 8 assists a steal a block and shot 48% and I have heard so many times in my life about how he choked that series away.... REALLY? Thats an all time great series by an indivdiual.

Again. LIke the post I quoted. I am not not NOT trying to start a Kobe LeBron debate. I'm not trying to rag on Kobe. But these are some of the most frequent double standards people use while arguing. And since the argument was Kobe/LeBron for so long i have these ones pounded into my head.

again, not a kobe lebron debate. just using an example.

First of all, I thought this was about trying to compare Lebron to Jordan, not Kobe. But if we wanna go down that road, the big difference is that Kobe has a killer instinct that more resembles Jordan. In close games, I've seen Kobe take over in a way that I've yet to see Lebron do. I also don't like comparing numbers like this. Kobe could have put up more if he wanted to.. same with Jordan. But both got to a point where they let the offense work through other players. Lebron still seems to need to control the offense and for your leading scorer, I don't know that I like that approach.

 

[trojanfan12]

First of all, I thought this was about trying to compare Lebron to Jordan, not Kobe. But if we wanna go down that road, the big difference is that Kobe has a killer instinct that more resembles Jordan. In close games, I've seen Kobe take over in a way that I've yet to see Lebron do. I also don't like comparing numbers like this. Kobe could have put up more if he wanted to.. same with Jordan. But both got to a point where they let the offense work through other players. Lebron still seems to need to control the offense and for your leading scorer, I don't know that I like that approach.

I've never been a fan of the Lebron/MJ and Lebron/Kobe comparisons. I've always felt that Lebron's game favors Magic Johnson much more that MJ or Kobe.

Magic was always a player that would look to get his teammates going, see what everybody had that game and then he'd "fill in the blanks". That's what Lebron does for the most part. The biggest difference that I see is that Magic was a little quicker at figuring out what the team needed from him and acting on it than Lebron is. He was also a little quicker to "call his own number" if a play didn't look like it was going to work. For example, the famous "junior, junior skyhook" from the series vs. Boston came on a play that was designed for Kareem. Magic wasn't comfortable with the defense (if memory serves, the Celtics left Rambis open and doubled Kareem), so he improvised. Lebron doesn't seem as quick to do that.

 

[gpm1976]

I've never been a fan of the Lebron/MJ and Lebron/Kobe comparisons. I've always felt that Lebron's game favors Magic Johnson much more that MJ or Kobe.

Magic was always a player that would look to get his teammates going, see what everybody had that game and then he'd "fill in the blanks". That's what Lebron does for the most part. The biggest difference that I see is that Magic was a little quicker at figuring out what the team needed from him and acting on it than Lebron is. He was also a little quicker to "call his own number" if a play didn't look like it was going to work. For example, the famous "junior, junior skyhook" from the series vs. Boston came on a play that was designed for Kareem. Magic wasn't comfortable with the defense (if memory serves, the Celtics left Rambis open and doubled Kareem), so he improvised. Lebron doesn't seem as quick to do that.

Yeah, I guess he does resemble Magic more than the other two. I also think that Lebron is also a little selfish in a way. With his size he should be down in the paint more to open up shots for others. But he's set on being a guard/perimeter style player. I know he's worked on his low post play a little down in Miami, but he never even tried at Cleveland. I don't think he's the team player everyone thinks he is.. at least he wasn't at Cleveland.

 

[hockey878]

I'm not one who claims that Lebron quit vs. the Celtics, but you are overlooking a couple of key points.

In that game 7 vs. Boston, Kobe also had 15 rebounds. Also, and this is the biggest difference, his team won.

MJ went 6-0 in finals appearances. Kobe is 5-2 in finals appearances. Lebron is 2-2 and barring a miracle, will be 2-3 in finals appearances and likely to be 2-2 when paired with D-Wade and Bosh. I don't see the double standard outside of people claiming that Lebron quit.

i included that in my post..

That again is a reference to a team thing. Gasol, Bynum, Artest all came up huge. LeBron has had no such luck. His guys have shrunk. it happened in cleveland too.

 

[trojanfan12]

i included that in my post..

That again is a reference to a team thing. Gasol, Bynum, Artest all came up huge. LeBron has had no such luck. His guys have shrunk. it happened in cleveland too.

To be fair, that Cleveland team was shrunk before they got to the finals. Outside of having Lebron, that may have been the least talented team to make it that far.

 

[True Lakers Fan]

Facts about Michael Jordan:


Never quit on his team and give up before the game was over
Never changed teams just to win championships
Never lost in the finals ever
Had he played those two years in between championships - He would have 8 titles.
Lebron will never get 6 titles ever unless he has six automobiles paid for with cash.

 

[Desean12345]

Lebron isn't close to Jordan and probably never will be. 2-3 in the NBA finals including an all time epic choke job against Dallas.

 

[Kinzu]

Lebron simply lacks the ability to take over the game whenever he wants. He is no where close to equal with Jordan in terms of basketball IQ and skill set. Lebron has Jordan beat in size and is a freakish athlete for his size, but he has a weak offensive game that relies heavily on that athleticism.

Lebron in over 10 years has still not developed the dominate post game he could easily have to destroy opponents for putting smaller defenders on him. Jordan did develop one and added a deadly fade away jump shot to it that was virtually unguardable. If that fade away shot was on then you had to double and triple team him. If you watch Kobe play he has a similar fade away he no doubt copied from Jordan. That post game and fade away is a big reason MJ was able to stay a dominate player long after his jumping ability had diminished.

Another thing Lebron lacks heavily in is dribble moves. You don't see killer cross-overs or behind the backs from it to shake a defender. This is another key skill set he could have added by now. When you watch some of the greatest game changers in the history of the NBA most all of them had unreal ability to shake defenders.

How many times has Lebron carried the team on his back in crucial moments? I don't mean how many times has Lebron put up 25+ points and near triple doubles in losing efforts. I mean how many times has Lebron taking the ball and been the primary playmaker in key moments when his team needed that shot in the arm? Greats like Bird, Magic, Jordan, Isiah, Wilkins and Iverson had that ability to take control of a game when their team was losing it. They could do this because they all had the skills for it.

Lebron is a lot more comparable to greats like Malone, Barkley, Shaq, Olajuwon, and even Duncan. All of these guys are Hall of Famers that could stuff a stat sheet and even won MVP titles, but they were not primary playmakers. They were not likely to take over a game by controlling the ball. They all required good teams built around their talent to be champions. That does diminish how dominate they were though. I mean look at the Spurs for example, Tim Duncan has easily been the best player on that team for over a decade, but he likely wins nothing without Tony Parker. Tony Parker is the playmaker for that team. The reason the Heat are struggling in these Finals is because they lack their playmaker. Dwayne Wade was suppose to be that guy, but his body has simply giving out on him.


People want to compare Lebron to Jordan because they are both the most well known and highest profiled players of their era, but they are far from equals and occupy completely different roles for their teams.

 

[hockey878]

When you said LeBron isn't the primary playmaker you lost all credibility.

He HAS taken over time and time again in the playoffs throughout his career. I suggest you go back and check your history.

You really just said LeBron doesn't take over by controlling the ball? really?

 

[hockey878]

Facts about Michael Jordan:


Never quit on his team and give up before the game was over
Never changed teams just to win championships
Never lost in the finals ever
Had he played those two years in between championships - He would have 8 titles.
Lebron will never get 6 titles ever unless he has six automobiles paid for with cash.

and this is a perfect example of the undue criticism. I don't believe that LeBron is better than MJ. He just isn't.

But again when did he quit? in the 27 19 and 10 game? Was that really quitting?

Changed teams to win championships is the most bogus point haters use. He played in effing cleveland with a bunch of no talent losers who he carried on his back for 3 years. He went 39 8 and 8 in the magic series and his teammates still couldn't come through with any type of help for him. Its not his fault he got drafted to a team with an incompetant front office. If anything we should be happy he got out of there so he didn't waste his career KG style. I wish he would've gotten out earlier. Every NBA champion has had help. why do we expect LeBron to have done it nearly on his own?

Lost in the finals. Fair enough. I fault LeBron for the Dallas loss. I think its retarded to hold losing to the spurs the first time against LeBron. He should be praised for getting that piece of shit team there. Instead he is criticized for over achieving. People would look at his legacy better if he just lost in the ECF as was expected. Thats total bullshit.

THe 8 titles thing is maybe the most absurd misconception I've seen by most people. Maybe 4 in a row? Maybe 5. But no way they go 8 straight years to the finals, much less win it. It changes everything, injuries, fatigue, player acquisitions. The heat are living proof that you just can't play that many games that many seasons in a row without experiencing serious injury and fatigue issues. MJ was great. THe bulls were great. But he was human. And the notion that he would have won 8 straight titles is crazy.

Last one. You are probably right, only time will tell.

 

[hockey878]

Lebron simply lacks the ability to take over the game whenever he wants. He is no where close to equal with Jordan in terms of basketball IQ and skill set. Lebron has Jordan beat in size and is a freakish athlete for his size, but he has a weak offensive game that relies heavily on that athleticism.

Lebron in over 10 years has still not developed the dominate post game he could easily have to destroy opponents for putting smaller defenders on him. Jordan did develop one and added a deadly fade away jump shot to it that was virtually unguardable. If that fade away shot was on then you had to double and triple team him. If you watch Kobe play he has a similar fade away he no doubt copied from Jordan. That post game and fade away is a big reason MJ was able to stay a dominate player long after his jumping ability had diminished.

Another thing Lebron lacks heavily in is dribble moves. You don't see killer cross-overs or behind the backs from it to shake a defender. This is another key skill set he could have added by now. When you watch some of the greatest game changers in the history of the NBA most all of them had unreal ability to shake defenders.

How many times has Lebron carried the team on his back in crucial moments? I don't mean how many times has Lebron put up 25+ points and near triple doubles in losing efforts. I mean how many times has Lebron taking the ball and been the primary playmaker in key moments when his team needed that shot in the arm? Greats like Bird, Magic, Jordan, Isiah, Wilkins and Iverson had that ability to take control of a game when their team was losing it. They could do this because they all had the skills for it.

Lebron is a lot more comparable to greats like Malone, Barkley, Shaq, Olajuwon, and even Duncan. All of these guys are Hall of Famers that could stuff a stat sheet and even won MVP titles, but they were not primary playmakers. They were not likely to take over a game by controlling the ball. They all required good teams built around their talent to be champions. That does diminish how dominate they were though. I mean look at the Spurs for example, Tim Duncan has easily been the best player on that team for over a decade, but he likely wins nothing without Tony Parker. Tony Parker is the playmaker for that team. The reason the Heat are struggling in these Finals is because they lack their playmaker. Dwayne Wade was suppose to be that guy, but his body has simply giving out on him.


People want to compare Lebron to Jordan because they are both the most well known and highest profiled players of their era, but they are far from equals and occupy completely different roles for their teams.

Game 5 2007 ECF

Game 7 2008 ECF

Essentially the entirety of the 2009 ECF (39 8 and 8... or is that not "being a playmaker", or taking over?)

2011 Bulls series guarding and stopping rose in 4q. Particularly stepping up at the end of game 5 to end the series.

2012 Down 2-1 to INdy with Bosh hurt LeBron goes into Indy and goes 40, 18, 9,
game 5 30, 10, 8

2012 ECF Ummm. game 6? Is that not LeBron taking control in your mind? HOw are you seriously missing all these games?
4th quarter of game 7 was close, with celtics even leading for awhile, until LeBron had a flurry of points and assists to put it out of reach for the rest of the game.

2012 Finals He didn't have one standout game, but he pretty much dominated the entire series game 2-5. 29 10 and 7? He really didn't make many plays.

2013 ECF Game 1, risk of losing HCA LeBron scores GW Layup with almost no time left.
Game 7, "winning time" LeBron goes out puts up a casual 32 on 17 shots. Paul George shits his pants trying to score on LeBron. Series over.

2013 Finals game 6. Down double digits in the 3rd it looked like the heat were done. People love to forget that LeBron is the one who LED them on a hard charge back into the game so Ray could even hit that shot late. Dwade was on the bench as the heat were actually worse with him and lebron on the court in this series.

game 7 up to 28 seconds to go. LeBron hits a dagger jumper. Two things he supposedly can't do.


THis doesn't even include some of the "less important games" or even every game during this time span i covered. I know people would say they weren't important, so i won't bring up some of the ridiculous performances early in his career vs washington in the playoffs.

The fact that you list allen freakin iverson as a guy that could be take control of a game and not lebron is a bit pathetic.

 

[hockey878]

Lebron simply lacks the ability to take over the game whenever he wants. He is no where close to equal with Jordan in terms of basketball IQ and skill set. Lebron has Jordan beat in size and is a freakish athlete for his size, but he has a weak offensive game that relies heavily on that athleticism.

Lebron in over 10 years has still not developed the dominate post game he could easily have to destroy opponents for putting smaller defenders on him. Jordan did develop one and added a deadly fade away jump shot to it that was virtually unguardable. If that fade away shot was on then you had to double and triple team him. If you watch Kobe play he has a similar fade away he no doubt copied from Jordan. That post game and fade away is a big reason MJ was able to stay a dominate player long after his jumping ability had diminished.

Another thing Lebron lacks heavily in is dribble moves. You don't see killer cross-overs or behind the backs from it to shake a defender. This is another key skill set he could have added by now. When you watch some of the greatest game changers in the history of the NBA most all of them had unreal ability to shake defenders.

How many times has Lebron carried the team on his back in crucial moments? I don't mean how many times has Lebron put up 25+ points and near triple doubles in losing efforts. I mean how many times has Lebron taking the ball and been the primary playmaker in key moments when his team needed that shot in the arm? Greats like Bird, Magic, Jordan, Isiah, Wilkins and Iverson had that ability to take control of a game when their team was losing it. They could do this because they all had the skills for it.

Lebron is a lot more comparable to greats like Malone, Barkley, Shaq, Olajuwon, and even Duncan. All of these guys are Hall of Famers that could stuff a stat sheet and even won MVP titles, but they were not primary playmakers. They were not likely to take over a game by controlling the ball. They all required good teams built around their talent to be champions. That does diminish how dominate they were though. I mean look at the Spurs for example, Tim Duncan has easily been the best player on that team for over a decade, but he likely wins nothing without Tony Parker. Tony Parker is the playmaker for that team. The reason the Heat are struggling in these Finals is because they lack their playmaker. Dwayne Wade was suppose to be that guy, but his body has simply giving out on him.


People want to compare Lebron to Jordan because they are both the most well known and highest profiled players of their era, but they are far from equals and occupy completely different roles for their teams.

so incredibly wrong.

are you still living in 2010?

 

[trojanfan12]

and this is a perfect example of the undue criticism. I don't believe that LeBron is better than MJ. He just isn't.

But again when did he quit? in the 27 19 and 10 game? Was that really quitting?

Changed teams to win championships is the most bogus point haters use. He played in effing cleveland with a bunch of no talent losers who he carried on his back for 3 years. He went 39 8 and 8 in the magic series and his teammates still couldn't come through with any type of help for him. Its not his fault he got drafted to a team with an incompetant front office. If anything we should be happy he got out of there so he didn't waste his career KG style. I wish he would've gotten out earlier. Every NBA champion has had help. why do we expect LeBron to have done it nearly on his own?

Lost in the finals. Fair enough. I fault LeBron for the Dallas loss. I think its retarded to hold losing to the spurs the first time against LeBron. He should be praised for getting that piece of shit team there. Instead he is criticized for over achieving. People would look at his legacy better if he just lost in the ECF as was expected. Thats total bullshit.

THe 8 titles thing is maybe the most absurd misconception I've seen by most people. Maybe 4 in a row? Maybe 5. But no way they go 8 straight years to the finals, much less win it. It changes everything, injuries, fatigue, player acquisitions. The heat are living proof that you just can't play that many games that many seasons in a row without experiencing serious injury and fatigue issues. MJ was great. THe bulls were great. But he was human. And the notion that he would have won 8 straight titles is crazy.

Last one. You are probably right, only time will tell.

It's not just Lebron who gets criticized like that. People add or remove that based on which player they support.

People say "MJ is the GOAT" and those who support Russell, Magic, Kobe or Lebron all say "But he couldn't win without Pippen, Rodman, etc."

People say it's Magic and the MJ, Lebron, etc. supporters all say "Look at the Hall of Famers that he played with"

People say it's Lebron and the supporters of all the others say "He had to go form an All-Star team to win"

and on it goes.

 

[gpm1976]

and this is a perfect example of the undue criticism. I don't believe that LeBron is better than MJ. He just isn't.

But again when did he quit? in the 27 19 and 10 game? Was that really quitting?

Changed teams to win championships is the most bogus point haters use. He played in effing cleveland with a bunch of no talent losers who he carried on his back for 3 years. He went 39 8 and 8 in the magic series and his teammates still couldn't come through with any type of help for him. Its not his fault he got drafted to a team with an incompetant front office. If anything we should be happy he got out of there so he didn't waste his career KG style. I wish he would've gotten out earlier. Every NBA champion has had help. why do we expect LeBron to have done it nearly on his own?

Lost in the finals. Fair enough. I fault LeBron for the Dallas loss. I think its retarded to hold losing to the spurs the first time against LeBron. He should be praised for getting that piece of shit team there. Instead he is criticized for over achieving. People would look at his legacy better if he just lost in the ECF as was expected. Thats total bullshit.

THe 8 titles thing is maybe the most absurd misconception I've seen by most people. Maybe 4 in a row? Maybe 5. But no way they go 8 straight years to the finals, much less win it. It changes everything, injuries, fatigue, player acquisitions. The heat are living proof that you just can't play that many games that many seasons in a row without experiencing serious injury and fatigue issues. MJ was great. THe bulls were great. But he was human. And the notion that he would have won 8 straight titles is crazy.

Last one. You are probably right, only time will tell.

You wish he'd changed teams earlier?!?!? WHY?? Crap like this is what's making the NBA suck. You're happy with having the same teams on the bottom all the time? So a ball club finally gets that once in a lifetime player and you'd be happy with that player being able to leave before he even plays one game? That's what used to make the NBA fun. You knew that when the 76ers played the Jazz you'd get to see Barkley and Malone go at it. These days the players don't wanna go head to head anymore, they want to team up so they can have a shot at a ring. You're really not much of a sports fan.

By the way, Jordan's bulls earlier on were worse than the cavs under Lebron. At least Lebron got the cavs to go over the cap to get Shaq.. and remember that, Lebron picked Shaq to join the crew. Not the other way around. So maybe lebron needs to be a little smarter. There are many other reasons the Cavs could have been better, but it all boils down to Lebron's selfish play. He wouldn't adjust his game and learn some post up skills. Instead he wants to play playground ball where we faces someone up and takes them off the dribble. No one else on that team ever got an open look because of that.

One other point about this series. Lebron's got plenty of help aside from Wade in Bosh and Rashad Lewis. Both can shoot the lights out of it. Lebron and Wade aren't doing enough to get these guys more looks.

 

[gpm1976]

so incredibly wrong.

are you still living in 2010?

Wade makes 18 mil a year. Is it wrong to expect him to step up and earn that money? 10 points and 2 rebounds is just pathetic for a guy making that kind of money.

 

[TurnUpTheHeat]

You wish he'd changed teams earlier?!?!? WHY?? Crap like this is what's making the NBA suck. You're happy with having the same teams on the bottom all the time? So a ball club finally gets that once in a lifetime player and you'd be happy with that player being able to leave before he even plays one game? That's what used to make the NBA fun. You knew that when the 76ers played the Jazz you'd get to see Barkley and Malone go at it. These days the players don't wanna go head to head anymore, they want to team up so they can have a shot at a ring. You're really not much of a sports fan.

By the way, Jordan's bulls earlier on were worse than the cavs under Lebron. At least Lebron got the cavs to go over the cap to get Shaq.. and remember that, Lebron picked Shaq to join the crew. Not the other way around. So maybe lebron needs to be a little smarter. There are many other reasons the Cavs could have been better, but it all boils down to Lebron's selfish play. He wouldn't adjust his game and learn some post up skills. Instead he wants to play playground ball where we faces someone up and takes them off the dribble. No one else on that team ever got an open look because of that.

One other point about this series. Lebron's got plenty of help aside from Wade in Bosh and Rashad Lewis. Both can shoot the lights out of it. Lebron and Wade aren't doing enough to get these guys more looks.

Shaq was basically useless for his year in Cleveland, and I believe a big factor in their early exit.
The Cavs were rolling right along without him. He was more inserted back into the lineup coming off the injury
because of name much more than necessity.



As far as the other stuff in other posts about the James comparisons based solely on his Finals record, I say stop.
His 1st Finals loss was to this same Spurs team when the Spurs players were all in their prime.

Plenty of blame can be thrown his way in the Big 3, season 1 loss to Dallas. Consider though what a unique experiment that was and at that point Wade was still Wade and the team leadership role wasn't clearly defined.

As far as this Finals, it's not over yet, but assuming the Spurs win, is it James' fault?
Wade has been the worst player on the floor for large portions of the time he's on it.
None of the Heat bench have had a great series, and our PG play has been embarrassing.

The Spurs as a team have been amazing, to the point of statistically historical.


No player, not even Jordan, could overcome the gap in efficiency that James has been up against this series, particularly games 3 &4.

If just being named Jordan guaranteed series wins, he wouldn't have lost so many earlier rounds ones, right?

 

[hockey878]

Wade makes 18 mil a year. Is it wrong to expect him to step up and earn that money? 10 points and 2 rebounds is just pathetic for a guy making that kind of money.

He should be... but the notion that he IS the heat's primary playmaker? That hasn't been a thing for at least 3 years now.

Your posts make little to no sense

 

[ChicagoIrish]

I'll take LeBron over Jordan

Just my opinion