Interesting SI article. Interchange LeBron-n-MJ's names and look at some facts

[starbigd]

You can't compare the Celtics/Lakers rivalry to this. Those championship games between magic and bird were the best I've ever seen. As far as stepping up in big game moments, Lebron isn't even a top 25 mention... in fact, I can't even recall a time when I've seen Lebron step up and take over and bring his team back.

This is so WOEFULLY wrong I don't know where to start.

Magic lost 4, FOUR Finals......

Lebron also has the highest shooting percentage in Finals HISTORY. He is putting up RECORD numbers and his teammates are routinely not showing up.

It's to the point where most of you simply see what you want to. This reminds me of the republican party nowadays, where ignorance seems to have become a value. Facts be damned......opinion is all that matters, not reality

 

[Jims_Doors]

BTW......I didn't post that article to compare the 2 players careers or say LeBron is catching MJ etc...

 

[gordontrue]

The hate on Lebron is ridiculous tho.

The writer of that article makes VALID points. He didn't have to use Jordan either. I had this argument last night with a hater on Lebrons legacy.

All I heard was that it's forever tainted because he's lost 3 finals. Is Magic's legacy tainted? How about Birds?

These fools simply don't know history. They routinely overvalue the past, and forget or ignore key parts that don't support them.

Kobe has lost 2 finals, mostly for shooting his team out of games. He got beat down by 29 by Boston in the finals. He's lost 3 times in the FIRST ROUND. But these don't define him.

Bird lost in the finals twice. Magic lost 4 times. NONE of these things matter in the long run.

Lebron will go down as an all time great. WHY can't we just appreciate the greatness we're witnessing WHILE we are witnessing it?

Michael was a complete dick and egomaniacal douchebag who barely acknowledged his fans. The only person that was important to MJ was MJ. Womanizer, Racist, Degenerate Gambler.... all lables that would destroy a modern athlete rolled off him without any damage. If he ever got accused of making a mistake, the accuser gets blackballed from the media. So, he never made mistakes thanks to a carefully controlled ruthless media.
MJ IS BELOVED.


Lebron is a nice guy who truly wants his teammates and fans to like him. He has shown incredible empathy and openness. When he made mistakes, Lebron listens & apologizes. He takes responsibility and works to correct it. Media members have found out they can further advance their sleazy careers by simply attacking him. It gets them extra airtime and bylines.
LEBRON is HATED.




I don't understand it.

 

[gpm1976]

Or you could say "Oh...I guess I wasn't paying enough attention"

Now we're to the point where his near triple doubles are criticized for not being flashy enough?? So if he gets 12 rebounds they should be "battling 1 on 3" rebounds? His 9 assists should be consisted of 4 no look passes and 5 behind the back passes?

I guess you really aren't paying attention. He's just content with being one of the guys on the court?? He creates offense for himself and his teammates and most of time guards the best offensive player on the other team. That's just being one of the 5 guys on the court??

I'm not going to touch you last 2 paragraphs cause it's quite clear you're just a casual fan or see what you want to see.

2010 Cleveland vs Boston. Lebron's final game/season with the Cavs. Lebron puts up and amazing 15 points. Shaq played something like 15 minutes, needed a walker to get up and down the court, and still managed to put up 21. The highlight of the game has to be the fast break, controlled by Lebron, and instead of jamming it down the throats of the 2 back peddling defenders, he decides to pass it to Mo Williams who isn't even set and the ball sails out of bounds. That's the Lebron that shows up when he has to be "the man" and isn't surrounded by all stars. The reason he has to quietly put up triple doubles is that when he does step into the spotlight, he doesn't perform so well. Don't get me wrong, Lebron's good.. but not the type of guy that can step up like Jordan, Bird and Magic were able to do.

 

[lakersrule]

Lebron fans try way too hard to marginalize historical player's careers to elevate Lebron's. There's no need to. He's still in the prime of his career and will go down as an all-time great.

 

[gpm1976]

This is so WOEFULLY wrong I don't know where to start.

Magic lost 4, FOUR Finals......

Lebron also has the highest shooting percentage in Finals HISTORY. He is putting up RECORD numbers and his teammates are routinely not showing up.

It's to the point where most of you simply see what you want to. This reminds me of the republican party nowadays, where ignorance seems to have become a value. Facts be damned......opinion is all that matters, not reality

Lebron put up 28 last night and his team got destroyed! He put up 22 in the game before. How are these record numbers?

By the way, nice job bringing politics into this, but liberal dims take the cake on ignorance after voting that idiot back in for a second term.

 

[starbigd]

Lebron fans try way too hard to marginalize historical player's careers to elevate Lebron's. There's no need to. He's still in the prime of his career and will go down as an all-time great.

I'm not a Lebron fan.

BUT, there isn't a single historical player I can find that did not have failures worse than Lebron that are considered GODS to most of you.

Seriously, look at this thread. Everything Lebron has done or not done i guarantee I can find multiple instances of the greats doing the SAME THING and yet no criticism.

It's just out of hand, because very few here know NBA history. All they know are highlights.

 

[lakersrule]

I'm not a Lebron fan.

BUT, there isn't a single historical player I can find that did not have failures worse than Lebron that are considered GODS to most of you.

Seriously, look at this thread. Everything Lebron has done or not done i guarantee I can find multiple instances of the greats doing the SAME THING and yet no criticism.

It's just out of hand, because very few here know NBA history. All they know are highlights.

I get what you are saying, except for the part that no other great has ever been criticized. Lebron isn't the only one.

 

[Jims_Doors]

Lebron has worked hard on his game, there's no doubt about that. But he will never be MJ. MJ flat out destroyed teams and a lot of the time, these games would be over after the first half. Lebron seems to need to surround himself with great shooting and all-star caliber talent in order to open up his game. If anything, we should be comparing Lebron to Dominique Wilkins.. flashy but not the complete package.

I understand you're a Cavs fan and have every right to not like the guy, but really??

 

[gpm1976]

I understand you're a Cavs fan and have every right to not like the guy, but really??

I just call it as I see it. I wasn't much of a Cavs fan, but I did try to catch some games now and then and I always watched the playoffs. I kept seeing the same thing every year.. a great athlete who would lead his team to the best record in the league and then flop in the playoffs. I watched this happen year in and year out. I just don't think he's a great clutch player.

 

[Kinzu]

I just call it as I see it. I wasn't much of a Cavs fan, but I did try to catch some games now and then and I always watched the playoffs. I kept seeing the same thing every year.. a great athlete who would lead his team to the best record in the league and then flop in the playoffs. I watched this happen year in and year out. I just don't think he's a great clutch player.

He has all the ability to take over a game, but lacks the personality to do it. That's why in the end he will not go down as one of the greatest alongside guys like MJ, Kobe, Bird, and Magic. Does Lebron put up great numbers? Sure, but where is he when his team is down and on the verge of falling even further behind? probably passing the ball or continuing to play his unselfish style of basketball. Where were guys like Bird, MJ, Kobe, and Magic in that situation? Probably screaming at a team mate to give them the damn ball.

Like I said when you watched a Jordan game it was clear who the most dominate player on the court was without a stat sheet. When Lebron plays you need to check the stat sheet most the time to see how good of a game he actually had because you likely didn't notice. Stat are great and all, but they don't always tell the whole story.

 

[gpm1976]

He has all the ability to take over a game, but lacks the personality to do it. That's why in the end he will not go down as one of the greatest alongside guys like MJ, Kobe, Bird, and Magic. Does Lebron put up great numbers? Sure, but where is he when his team is down and on the verge of falling even further behind? probably passing the ball or continuing to play his unselfish style of basketball. Where were guys like Bird, MJ, Kobe, and Magic in that situation? Probably screaming at a team mate to give them the damn ball.

Like I said when you watched a Jordan game it was clear who the most dominate player on the court was without a stat sheet. When Lebron plays you need to check the stat sheet most the time to see how good of a game he actually had because you likely didn't notice. Stat are great and all, but they don't always tell the whole story.

Yup, and this is what I see when I watch. Sure, he's dangerous and can score, but I don't see him taking over the game like Jordan, Bird and Magic used to. I still think Lebron isn't really a pure shooter. Early on I used to watch and wonder why he didn't just post up.. because he was a pretty good post player. But he didn't want that. He wanted to be a shooter.. and I think he's worked very hard and has come a long way, but shooting doesn't seem to come easy to him and it's not as natural.

 

[starbigd]

I get what you are saying, except for the part that no other great has ever been criticized. Lebron isn't the only one.

I'm not saying they weren't criticized. I'm saying the things we criticize Lebron for they've ALL done. Hell in some cases it was celebrated.

We pick and choose with lebron. I'll use the convo I had last night.

Dude was telling me Kobe never failed like this.....until you bring up his two Finals losses. Then the argument changed to he doesn't quit, till you bring up the Phoenix series, then it changed to he never gets blown out, till you bring up that Boston beat down and the Mavs sweep, then it changes to Kobe made his teammates better till you bring up those 4 first round playoff exits. THEN it changed to "Kobe had no help" - but when Lebron had no help, he wasn't good enough? Lebron carried a bad team to the finals COMPLETELY on his own shoulders.

Very FEW all time greats have done that. You have to have killer instinct, drive and determination to carry a team of scrubs to the promised land. But you can't beat a Spurs TEAM playing 1 on 12.

Yet this same person thinks his opinion is correct, despite the fact he's COMPLETELY wrong on all counts. This is what I see with the arguments we use against Lebron.

People just ignore the facts and make up their own reality.

 

[Jims_Doors]

2010 Cleveland vs Boston. Lebron's final game/season with the Cavs. Lebron puts up and amazing 15 points. Shaq played something like 15 minutes, needed a walker to get up and down the court, and still managed to put up 21. The highlight of the game has to be the fast break, controlled by Lebron, and instead of jamming it down the throats of the 2 back peddling defenders, he decides to pass it to Mo Williams who isn't even set and the ball sails out of bounds. That's the Lebron that shows up when he has to be "the man" and isn't surrounded by all stars. The reason he has to quietly put up triple doubles is that when he does step into the spotlight, he doesn't perform so well. Don't get me wrong, Lebron's good.. but not the type of guy that can step up like Jordan, Bird and Magic were able to do.

Interesting that you remembered that from game 5 (plus saying that was his last game) but did you go into a coma before game 6 of that series? That was LeBron's last game in a Cleveland uniform. His shooting % wasn't that great but in 46mins he put up 27-19 and 10 assists with 3 steals and a block. He had 9 TO's too but that's going to happen sometimes when you have to create offense for the rest of the team cause they're not able to do so.

BTW...Shaq played 27mins in game 5

 

[Shanemansj13]

2010 Cleveland vs Boston. Lebron's final game/season with the Cavs. Lebron puts up and amazing 15 points. Shaq played something like 15 minutes, needed a walker to get up and down the court, and still managed to put up 21. The highlight of the game has to be the fast break, controlled by Lebron, and instead of jamming it down the throats of the 2 back peddling defenders, he decides to pass it to Mo Williams who isn't even set and the ball sails out of bounds. That's the Lebron that shows up when he has to be "the man" and isn't surrounded by all stars. The reason he has to quietly put up triple doubles is that when he does step into the spotlight, he doesn't perform so well. Don't get me wrong, Lebron's good.. but not the type of guy that can step up like Jordan, Bird and Magic were able to do.

Game 1 35 pts 7 rebounds 7 assists
Game 2 24 pts 7 rebounds 6 assists
Game 3 38 pts 8 rebounds 7 assists
Game 4 22 pts 9 rebounds 8 assists
Game 5 15 pts 6 rebounds 6 assists
Game 6 27 pts 19 rebounds 10 assists

Really? One bad game shooting, doesn't show up.

27 ppg 9 rebounds 7 assists

 

[gohusk]

You know what my biggest problem with LeBron is? It took him 10 seasons to develop a post game when everyone had been talking about how great his body was since he went to the NBA. Magic's rookie year they moved him to center when Kareem went out injured in game 6 of the finals and he smoked the Sixers. It's absolutely inexcusable. He's a much better basketball player than he was before because it's next to impossible to take him out of the game offensively and it should have happened years ago.

 

[hockey878]

I'm not saying they weren't criticized. I'm saying the things we criticize Lebron for they've ALL done. Hell in some cases it was celebrated.

We pick and choose with lebron. I'll use the convo I had last night.

Dude was telling me Kobe never failed like this.....until you bring up his two Finals losses. Then the argument changed to he doesn't quit, till you bring up the Phoenix series, then it changed to he never gets blown out, till you bring up that Boston beat down and the Mavs sweep, then it changes to Kobe made his teammates better till you bring up those 4 first round playoff exits. THEN it changed to "Kobe had no help" - but when Lebron had no help, he wasn't good enough? Lebron carried a bad team to the finals COMPLETELY on his own shoulders.

Very FEW all time greats have done that. You have to have killer instinct, drive and determination to carry a team of scrubs to the promised land. But you can't beat a Spurs TEAM playing 1 on 12.

Yet this same person thinks his opinion is correct, despite the fact he's COMPLETELY wrong on all counts. This is what I see with the arguments we use against Lebron.

People just ignore the facts and make up their own reality.

The worst part about this is that, for some reason, people count it as a negative in his career that he lost those finals. It makes him 2-2 (for now) and if they lose he'll have a losing record in the finals and blah blah blah.

Somehow it would have been better for his legacy just losing to the pistons in the ECF as they should have. Instead, he carried them to the finals, and is criticized for losing to a team that was far superior. The cavs had no business being there, and it should be a CREDIT to LeBron that they were there, not a detriment.

Another fantastic piece of information is that Kobe won the finals MVP in the last ship. and LeBron played better vs the celtics than Kobe did. Yet Kobe is a "winner" and LeBron "quit". Hey guys, did you think the team had anything to do with it?

Kobe game 7 goes 6-24 scores 23 points with 15 rebounds and he is a winner, does whatever it takes to win.

LeBron game 6 of ECF goes 8-21 scores 27 points 19 rebounds 10 assists and he quit?


LeBron vs the celtics in that series:

27 pts 9 rebs 7 assists 2 stls 1blk shot 45% AND WE SAY HE QUIT? HE FAILED? HE CHOKED?

Kobe vs the celtics in the finals:

29 pts 8 rebs 4 assists 2stls 0.7blk shot 40% AND HE WAS THE FINALS MVP??

Now Kobe deserved every bit of the MVP, im not ragging on kobe. Im using kobe to point out the fact that we have a ridiculous double standard toward LeBron. LeBron played every bit as good as Kobe, if not better. But his team wasn't there. But everyone wants to lose sight of that and just put it on LeBron.

BUT STILL. Even worse that that, my favorite LeBron choked story of all time is the 09 ECF vs orlando.

The guys averaged 39 pts 8 rebs 8 assists a steal a block and shot 48% and I have heard so many times in my life about how he choked that series away.... REALLY? Thats an all time great series by an indivdiual.

Again. LIke the post I quoted. I am not not NOT trying to start a Kobe LeBron debate. I'm not trying to rag on Kobe. But these are some of the most frequent double standards people use while arguing. And since the argument was Kobe/LeBron for so long i have these ones pounded into my head.

again, not a kobe lebron debate. just using an example.

 

[hockey878]

I'm not a Lebron fan.

BUT, there isn't a single historical player I can find that did not have failures worse than Lebron that are considered GODS to most of you.

Seriously, look at this thread. Everything Lebron has done or not done i guarantee I can find multiple instances of the greats doing the SAME THING and yet no criticism.

It's just out of hand, because very few here know NBA history. All they know are highlights.

He also has a list as long as ANYONE of incredible playoff performances that seem to be brushed to the side without thought.

 

[trojanfan12]

The worst part about this is that, for some reason, people count it as a negative in his career that he lost those finals. It makes him 2-2 (for now) and if they lose he'll have a losing record in the finals and blah blah blah.

Somehow it would have been better for his legacy just losing to the pistons in the ECF as they should have. Instead, he carried them to the finals, and is criticized for losing to a team that was far superior. The cavs had no business being there, and it should be a CREDIT to LeBron that they were there, not a detriment.

Another fantastic piece of information is that Kobe won the finals MVP in the last ship. and LeBron played better vs the celtics than Kobe did. Yet Kobe is a "winner" and LeBron "quit". Hey guys, did you think the team had anything to do with it?

Kobe game 7 goes 6-24 scores 23 points with 15 rebounds and he is a winner, does whatever it takes to win.

LeBron game 6 of ECF goes 8-21 scores 27 points 19 rebounds 10 assists and he quit?


LeBron vs the celtics in that series:

27 pts 9 rebs 7 assists 2 stls 1blk shot 45% AND WE SAY HE QUIT? HE FAILED? HE CHOKED?

Kobe vs the celtics in the finals:

29 pts 8 rebs 4 assists 2stls 0.7blk shot 40% AND HE WAS THE FINALS MVP??

Now Kobe deserved every bit of the MVP, im not ragging on kobe. Im using kobe to point out the fact that we have a ridiculous double standard toward LeBron. LeBron played every bit as good as Kobe, if not better. But his team wasn't there. But everyone wants to lose sight of that and just put it on LeBron.

BUT STILL. Even worse that that, my favorite LeBron choked story of all time is the 09 ECF vs orlando.

The guys averaged 39 pts 8 rebs 8 assists a steal a block and shot 48% and I have heard so many times in my life about how he choked that series away.... REALLY? Thats an all time great series by an indivdiual.

Again. LIke the post I quoted. I am not not NOT trying to start a Kobe LeBron debate. I'm not trying to rag on Kobe. But these are some of the most frequent double standards people use while arguing. And since the argument was Kobe/LeBron for so long i have these ones pounded into my head.

again, not a kobe lebron debate. just using an example.

I'm not one who claims that Lebron quit vs. the Celtics, but you are overlooking a couple of key points.

In that game 7 vs. Boston, Kobe also had 15 rebounds. Also, and this is the biggest difference, his team won.

MJ went 6-0 in finals appearances. Kobe is 5-2 in finals appearances. Lebron is 2-2 and barring a miracle, will be 2-3 in finals appearances and likely to be 2-2 when paired with D-Wade and Bosh. I don't see the double standard outside of people claiming that Lebron quit.

 

[gpm1976]

Game 1 35 pts 7 rebounds 7 assists
Game 2 24 pts 7 rebounds 6 assists
Game 3 38 pts 8 rebounds 7 assists
Game 4 22 pts 9 rebounds 8 assists
Game 5 15 pts 6 rebounds 6 assists
Game 6 27 pts 19 rebounds 10 assists

Really? One bad game shooting, doesn't show up.

27 ppg 9 rebounds 7 assists

For years and years Jordan didn't have an ounce of talent around him. I didn't see him leaving to go form some all-star team. I'm sorry, but I don't like what's happening to the game. All-stars teaming up just so they can win one... and for Lebron to hold a press conference to make his announcement like some high school kid on signing day. I can't wait for the day that he leaves basketball.