The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[scotsman#1948]

trying to look at players who never played against each other or even the same levels of NBA talent, he cannot show why one is GOAT or not. for their individual eras they were or are the greatest of that period

 

[Mr. Friscus]

I can buy that first comment as you cannot stop thinking of MJ.

For me easiest case is Bulls win 55 and a playoff round with no MJ. MJ no Pippen holding hand? Never won a round or more then 42 games.

and of course most teams Lebron leaves fall off the map.

Maybe close was MJ quit when he was about to lose Pippen instead of facing the challenge.

MJ fans use blinders to view his career as:
- 63 points in a playoff game (they leave out that they lost the game and ther Bulls were swept)
- “The Shot” (they leave out the Bulls lost in the next round)
- Free throw line dunk in the dunk contest (they leave out it had already been done earlier in the contest, and it was done in earlier contests from greater distance than Jordan)
- 6 years where they won championships
- Ridiculous assumptions that “he would have won 2 more if he didn’t retire” (While forgetting that Jordan came back in 1994-95 and the Bulls lost to the Shaq/Penny Magic rather convincingly)
- The Wizards thing? Didn’t happen

They basically choose to use like 7 years of his career and imprint that on his entire career. Jordan had a historic prime, but outside of it he was just a volume scorer who couldn’t get his team past the elite squads

 

[Jordan23]

Uh, yeah.....was about to get tough with Pippen and likely his coach of choice gone.

Lebron left a Finals team for a much less talented team in LA. MJ lost his handholder and quit.

An AD talentless team? Lol. You really are full Of shit

 

[Jordan23]

MJ fans use blinders to view his career as:
- 63 points in a playoff game (they leave out that they lost the game and ther Bulls were swept)
- “The Shot” (they leave out the Bulls lost in the next round)
- Free throw line dunk in the dunk contest (they leave out it had already been done earlier in the contest, and it was done in earlier contests from greater distance than Jordan)
- 6 years where they won championships
- Ridiculous assumptions that “he would have won 2 more if he didn’t retire” (While forgetting that Jordan came back in 1994-95 and the Bulls lost to the Shaq/Penny Magic rather convincingly)
- The Wizards thing? Didn’t happen

They basically choose to use like 7 years of his career and imprint that on his entire career. Jordan had a historic prime, but outside of it he was just a volume scorer who couldn’t get his team past the elite squads

Lebron had the most incompetent and idiotic fans there are. I wouldn’t exactly talk, lol

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Lebron had the most incompetent and idiotic fans there are. I wouldn’t exactly talk, lol

Boy, you really showed me LOL.

 

[dtgold88]

An AD talentless team? Lol. You really are full Of shit

Joined the team before they had AD. AD not acquired until AFTER Lebron's first season in LA.

In you to own yet another lie, Tommy?

 

[dtgold88]

Lebron had the most incompetent and idiotic fans there are. I wouldn’t exactly talk, lol

If you wouldn't talk then shut up?

 

[dtgold88]

Boy, you really showed me LOL.

And that came from the guy who said Lebron joined a Laker team with AD on it.

Ya gotta love this forum.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

And that came from the guy who said Lebron joined a Laker team with AD on it.

Ya gotta love this forum.

Why waste your time correcting a zealot. Just let the child cry in the corner

 

[dtgold88]

Why waste your time correcting a zealot. Just let the child cry in the corner

free comic relief?

 

[RobToxin]

trying to look at players who never played against each other or even the same levels of NBA talent, he cannot show why one is GOAT or not. for their individual eras they were or are the greatest of that period

Not to mention the changes in rules and style of play that helped to elevate these players.

Facts are what facts are. They rewrote what is and isn't traveling in order to help elevate Jordan's game. Don't blame them. It got more people watching and made the NBA more money. I would have done the same thing.

 

[Wamu]

Proven wrong? That’s what you call that? Done nor stack his cards when it was tough for him in Cleveland?

Just wondering if you have the same issue with KD who joined a team he couldn't beat that were the 2x defending conference champs and had the 2x League MVP?

Then he left that dynasty to team up with two sure shot HOFers in Harden & Kyrie. They was supposed to be the next super-team but instead it turned out to be a complete dumpster fire and a failure for all three. KD also got the HC fired then demanded a trade outta Brooklyn.

I get it having a problem with LeBron's team-jumping. I'm not a fan of it. But to pretend he's the only superstar that's done that is incredibly biased.

 

[scotsman#1948]

Not to mention the changes in rules and style of play that helped to elevate these players.

Facts are what facts are. They rewrote what is and isn't traveling in order to help elevate Jordan's game. Don't blame them. It got more people watching and made the NBA more money. I would have done the same thing.

and they rewrote what was or wasn't physical play during the Lebron era to help Lebron's more physical game. but in both cases it was what the fans wanted to see

 

[RobToxin]

Just wondering if you have the same issue with KD who joined a team he couldn't beat that were the 2x defending conference champs and had the 2x League MVP?

Then he left that dynasty to team up with two sure shot HOFers in Harden & Kyrie. They was supposed to be the next super-team but instead it turned out to be a complete dumpster fire and a failure for all three. KD also got the HC fired then demanded a trade outta Brooklyn.

I get it having a problem with LeBron's team-jumping. I'm not a fan of it. But to pretend he's the only superstar that's done that is incredibly biased.

In summary:

Every player has at least some prima donna in him.

Reminds me of MJ calling Isiah Thomas an asshole.

Dude, that's kind of part of being at that level. You have to be somewhat of an asshole. MJ certainly had his share of asshole moments.

 

[Wamu]

In summary:

Every player has at least some prima donna in him.

Reminds me of MJ calling Isiah Thomas an asshole.

Dude, that's kind of part of being at that level. You have to be somewhat of an asshole. MJ certainly had his share of asshole moments.

Well said and I completely agree.

 

[RobToxin]

and they rewrote what was or wasn't physical play during the Lebron era to help Lebron's more physical game. but in both cases it was what the fans wanted to see

I actually had a conversation a while back about pro wrestling, but it is true of all sports and entertainment.

They all have to change to fit what will bring in the "mainstream audience" (18-40 demographic). I may prefer the NBA/NFL/Pro wrestling etc the way it was in the 80s. However, entertainment can't be programmed to cater to someone almost 60 years old. Especially if it means losing the 18-40 audience.

At the end of the day, the NBA is a part of the entertainment business and thus the need to change the product to that which will entertain the target audience.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

In summary:

Every player has at least some prima donna in him.

Reminds me of MJ calling Isiah Thomas an asshole.

Dude, that's kind of part of being at that level. You have to be somewhat of an asshole. MJ certainly had his share of asshole moments.

Don’t forget him being a special snowflake and saying if Thomas was on the Dream team he wouldn’t play.

he was a sensitive guy

 

[Mr. Friscus]

I actually had a conversation a while back about pro wrestling, but it is true of all sports and entertainment.

They all have to change to fit what will bring in the "mainstream audience" (18-40 demographic). I may prefer the NBA/NFL/Pro wrestling etc the way it was in the 80s. However, entertainment can't be programmed to cater to someone almost 60 years old. Especially if it means losing the 18-40 audience.

At the end of the day, the NBA is a part of the entertainment business and thus the need to change the product to that which will entertain the target audience.

Adam Silver has killed the NBA with all the woke racist stuff earlier n the decade combined with no new changes to create incentives to not shoot 50 3’s a game. Leagues make changes all the time. Silver is a corpse

 

[Jordan23]

Just wondering if you have the same issue with KD who joined a team he couldn't beat that were the 2x defending conference champs and had the 2x League MVP?

Then he left that dynasty to team up with two sure shot HOFers in Harden & Kyrie. They was supposed to be the next super-team but instead it turned out to be a complete dumpster fire and a failure for all three. KD also got the HC fired then demanded a trade outta Brooklyn.

I get it having a problem with LeBron's team-jumping. I'm not a fan of it. But to pretend he's the only superstar that's done that is incredibly biased.

KD same thing yes

 

[Jordan23]

And that came from the guy who said Lebron joined a Laker team with AD on it.

Ya gotta love this forum.

Didn’t say he joined AD his first year, I’m well aware he went there failed and had to get AD the next season cause he could do dog shit without him