Interesting SI article. Interchange LeBron-n-MJ's names and look at some facts

[hockey878]

He should be... but the notion that he IS the heat's primary playmaker? That hasn't been a thing for at least 3 years now.

Your posts make little to no sense

SOrry for some reason I was thinking your post was kinzu's. my bad

 

[Jims_Doors]

Lebron simply lacks the ability to take over the game whenever he wants. He is no where close to equal with Jordan in terms of basketball IQ and skill set. Lebron has Jordan beat in size and is a freakish athlete for his size, but he has a weak offensive game that relies heavily on that athleticism.

Lebron in over 10 years has still not developed the dominate post game he could easily have to destroy opponents for putting smaller defenders on him. Jordan did develop one and added a deadly fade away jump shot to it that was virtually unguardable. If that fade away shot was on then you had to double and triple team him. If you watch Kobe play he has a similar fade away he no doubt copied from Jordan. That post game and fade away is a big reason MJ was able to stay a dominate player long after his jumping ability had diminished.

Another thing Lebron lacks heavily in is dribble moves. You don't see killer cross-overs or behind the backs from it to shake a defender. This is another key skill set he could have added by now. When you watch some of the greatest game changers in the history of the NBA most all of them had unreal ability to shake defenders.

How many times has Lebron carried the team on his back in crucial moments? I don't mean how many times has Lebron put up 25+ points and near triple doubles in losing efforts. I mean how many times has Lebron taking the ball and been the primary playmaker in key moments when his team needed that shot in the arm? Greats like Bird, Magic, Jordan, Isiah, Wilkins and Iverson had that ability to take control of a game when their team was losing it. They could do this because they all had the skills for it.

Lebron is a lot more comparable to greats like Malone, Barkley, Shaq, Olajuwon, and even Duncan. All of these guys are Hall of Famers that could stuff a stat sheet and even won MVP titles, but they were not primary playmakers. They were not likely to take over a game by controlling the ball. They all required good teams built around their talent to be champions. That does diminish how dominate they were though. I mean look at the Spurs for example, Tim Duncan has easily been the best player on that team for over a decade, but he likely wins nothing without Tony Parker. Tony Parker is the playmaker for that team. The reason the Heat are struggling in these Finals is because they lack their playmaker. Dwayne Wade was suppose to be that guy, but his body has simply giving out on him.


People want to compare Lebron to Jordan because they are both the most well known and highest profiled players of their era, but they are far from equals and occupy completely different roles for their teams.

How come Jordan never went undefeated in his entire NBA career? Or any other of the guys you mentioned that have the killer instinct to take over and control the game?

Why did MJ let his team lose for 6yrs before winning a title? Why did he lose against Orlando in the 94-95 playoffs? How does that happen? What happen to killer instinct? What happen to his abilities to take over whenever he wanted?

In the 1996 Finals MJ shot 42 percent from the field, 32 percent from three, 84 percent from the line. He averaged three turnovers per game, and in the deciding Game 6 against the Sonics, he had as many turnovers (five) as made baskets (five, on 19 shots). How does that happen? What happen to killer instinct? What happen to his abilities to take over whenever he wanted?

In fact, in the last three games of those '96 Finals, Jordan shot 37 percent, with 11 turnovers. Nonetheless, Jordan's Chicago Bulls won, and Jordan was once again named Finals MVP.

How could all the above happen to the GOD of basketball? How could the guy with the most killer instinct, drive and that can take over when ever he wanted.......ever lose a game?

 

[gpm1976]

Shaq was basically useless for his year in Cleveland, and I believe a big factor in their early exit.
The Cavs were rolling right along without him. He was more inserted back into the lineup coming off the injury
because of name much more than necessity.



As far as the other stuff in other posts about the James comparisons based solely on his Finals record, I say stop.
His 1st Finals loss was to this same Spurs team when the Spurs players were all in their prime.

Plenty of blame can be thrown his way in the Big 3, season 1 loss to Dallas. Consider though what a unique experiment that was and at that point Wade was still Wade and the team leadership role wasn't clearly defined.

As far as this Finals, it's not over yet, but assuming the Spurs win, is it James' fault?
Wade has been the worst player on the floor for large portions of the time he's on it.
None of the Heat bench have had a great series, and our PG play has been embarrassing.

The Spurs as a team have been amazing, to the point of statistically historical.


No player, not even Jordan, could overcome the gap in efficiency that James has been up against this series, particularly games 3 &4.

If just being named Jordan guaranteed series wins, he wouldn't have lost so many earlier rounds ones, right?

James wanted Shaq. You can say he was useless, but that's the guy that James wanted. So whose fault was that??

Look at what happened tonight. James has a GREAT group of guys around him and still they get blown out.. embarrassed actually. James put the ball in the air twice as many times as anyone else on the team. He put up a bunch of points early, then the spurs shut it all down. That's not how the great players worked. They got the whole team involved then when things got tight down the stretch they took over. The only exceptions to this were when Jordan got hot and put up 30+ in the first half and ended the game right there... but that's not usually how he worked. Face it, the heat play poor team ball. They have more talent than any other team in the game. But this is what happens when you have a guy like Lebron asking a team to keep signing in talent on a year to year basis so he can keep winning... and maybe this could work, but look how much they have to spend on Wade who isn't worth 300k per year.

 

[gpm1976]

How come Jordan never went undefeated in his entire NBA career? Or any other of the guys you mentioned that have the killer instinct to take over and control the game?

Why did MJ let his team lose for 6yrs before winning a title? Why did he lose against Orlando in the 94-95 playoffs? How does that happen? What happen to killer instinct? What happen to his abilities to take over whenever he wanted?

In the 1996 Finals MJ shot 42 percent from the field, 32 percent from three, 84 percent from the line. He averaged three turnovers per game, and in the deciding Game 6 against the Sonics, he had as many turnovers (five) as made baskets (five, on 19 shots). How does that happen? What happen to killer instinct? What happen to his abilities to take over whenever he wanted?

In fact, in the last three games of those '96 Finals, Jordan shot 37 percent, with 11 turnovers. Nonetheless, Jordan's Chicago Bulls won, and Jordan was once again named Finals MVP.

How could all the above happen to the GOD of basketball? How could the guy with the most killer instinct, drive and that can take over when ever he wanted.......ever lose a game?

I guess you also didn't watch as Jordan ran all over the court to sink that game winning basket against the cavs.. or the game against Portland where they said the bulls had zero chance of winning yet Jordan comes out and makes just about every shot and puts up 35 points in the first half. I've watched both guys play, and Lebron just doesn't have what Jordan had. I didn't like Jordan all that much back then because he kept beating the shit out of everyone, but now I realize just what kind of a player he was. You can't sit down and look at numbers. Unless you actually watched him, you won't understand.

 

[hockey878]

James wanted Shaq. You can say he was useless, but that's the guy that James wanted. So whose fault was that??

Look at what happened tonight. James has a GREAT group of guys around him and still they get blown out.. embarrassed actually. James put the ball in the air twice as many times as anyone else on the team. He put up a bunch of points early, then the spurs shut it all down. That's not how the great players worked. They got the whole team involved then when things got tight down the stretch they took over. The only exceptions to this were when Jordan got hot and put up 30+ in the first half and ended the game right there... but that's not usually how he worked. Face it, the heat play poor team ball. They have more talent than any other team in the game. But this is what happens when you have a guy like Lebron asking a team to keep signing in talent on a year to year basis so he can keep winning... and maybe this could work, but look how much they have to spend on Wade who isn't worth 300k per year.

In all the other games he tried to get people going early in all the other games and that worked no better.

Great group of guys? Chalmers, Bird, Wade and cole were all no shows the whole series. Battier was toast.

LeBron had very little help in this series. Im not sure it would have mattered offensively how much help he got, the defense just couldn't stop the spurs

 

[HizzleRocker]

In all the other games he tried to get people going early in all the other games and that worked no better.

Great group of guys? Chalmers, Bird, Wade and cole were all no shows the whole series. Battier was toast.

LeBron had very little help in this series. Im not sure it would have mattered offensively how much help he got, the defense just couldn't stop the spurs

Dude, Lebron got the exect group of guys he wanted. If you don't remember 3 All-Stars from 3 different teams, from 3 different cities all co-oberated together and conspired to build a "dynasty." They then added a couple role players even after that.

Of course they made the finals in the weakest Conference known to basketball.

And the Lebron (not Heat) lovers cry "no help." Lol.

 

[Steelboy84]

Dude, Lebron got the exect group of guys he wanted. If you don't remember 3 All-Stars from 3 different teams, from 3 different cities all co-oberated together and conspired to build a "dynasty." They then added a couple role players even after that.

Of course they made the finals in the weakest Conference known to basketball.

And the Lebron (not Heat) lovers cry "no help." Lol.

Yea, it gets old after a while.

 

[hockey878]

Dude, Lebron got the exect group of guys he wanted. If you don't remember 3 All-Stars from 3 different teams, from 3 different cities all co-oberated together and conspired to build a "dynasty." They then added a couple role players even after that.

Of course they made the finals in the weakest Conference known to basketball.

And the Lebron (not Heat) lovers cry "no help." Lol.

Yes he got the guys he wanted.

doesn't change the fact that no one showed up...

 

[hockey878]

Dude, Lebron got the exect group of guys he wanted. If you don't remember 3 All-Stars from 3 different teams, from 3 different cities all co-oberated together and conspired to build a "dynasty." They then added a couple role players even after that.

Of course they made the finals in the weakest Conference known to basketball.

And the Lebron (not Heat) lovers cry "no help." Lol.

Many of the longstanding heat fans have also made comments about how no one showed up from the heat but LeBron.

Its pretty easy to see if you arent blinded with hate.

Wade was awful the whole series

 

[hockey878]

Maybe we should do it this way, who (in your opinion) did LeBron get help from?

 

[Kinzu]

How come Jordan never went undefeated in his entire NBA career? Or any other of the guys you mentioned that have the killer instinct to take over and control the game?

Why did MJ let his team lose for 6yrs before winning a title? Why did he lose against Orlando in the 94-95 playoffs? How does that happen? What happen to killer instinct? What happen to his abilities to take over whenever he wanted?

In the 1996 Finals MJ shot 42 percent from the field, 32 percent from three, 84 percent from the line. He averaged three turnovers per game, and in the deciding Game 6 against the Sonics, he had as many turnovers (five) as made baskets (five, on 19 shots). How does that happen? What happen to killer instinct? What happen to his abilities to take over whenever he wanted?

In fact, in the last three games of those '96 Finals, Jordan shot 37 percent, with 11 turnovers. Nonetheless, Jordan's Chicago Bulls won, and Jordan was once again named Finals MVP.

How could all the above happen to the GOD of basketball? How could the guy with the most killer instinct, drive and that can take over when ever he wanted.......ever lose a game?

Early in Jordan's career they failed because he tried to carry the team from start to finish every game. Early in his career he relied heavily on his talent to control his game. When they went up against a team like the Celtics or Pistons that could beat him up and shut him down the Bulls lost.

It's not about carrying your team from start to finish. It's about understanding when and where you need to insert your will on the game. Once MJ learned to trust his team mates and to pick and choose his moments the Bulls became near unstoppable. MJ learned he could take some nights off when his team was rolling and let himself be carried, and then on nights were his team struggled he would just take over and drop 45+ points like it was nothing. Anyone see a 40+ point night from Lebron in these Finals? Heat sure could have used it.

Are you really using a playoff series from his comeback year after being out of the NBA for over a full season to show how even Jordan lost games? And then you talk about how horrible his numbers were in a 1996 series in which he won the Finals MVP? Have I not said here already that stats are meaningless at telling the whole story of a game? Tony Parker was 0-10 tonight to start the game and finished 7-18. Horrible shooting performance based on the stat sheet, but the stat sheet fails to show just how dominate he was during a stretch in the 3rd quarter once he got it going. It fails to show how his baskets were equaling the Heats and keeping them out of reach at making a run.

Look everyone fails it's the nature of the game. Jordan himself has even admitted that his entire career is full of failures.

"I can accept failure, everyone fails at something. But I can't accept not trying."
-Michael Jordan

Lebron far to often doesn't seem like he is trying as hard as he can to win. He came out early tonight and was clearly the dominate force we all know he can be, but what happened to him over the next 3 quarters as the Spurs out scored the Heat by 33 points? It was like he came out and did his thing, and then just settled down and accepted defeat. I know his team sucked and without Wade it was likely hopeless, but Lebron or Bosh one should have been far more demanding of the ball during key stretches of the 2nd and 3rd quarter when the game was still winnable.

I know very few agree with me, but I'd rather have a 100% healthy Wade on the floor in these games than Lebron. Even though Lebron is the more talented player, Wade is just more reliable at being a 1 man show when needed. When both of them are healthy on the court they are near impossible to stop, but I think Wade is much harder to stop on his own than Lebron.

Anyway one last Jordan quote as it's fitting after this NBA Finals.

"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
-Michael Jordan

 

[Steelboy84]

Early in Jordan's career they failed because he tried to carry the team from start to finish every game. Early in his career he relied heavily on his talent to control his game. When they went up against a team like the Celtics or Pistons that could beat him up and shut him down the Bulls lost.

It's not about carrying your team from start to finish. It's about understanding when and where you need to insert your will on the game. Once MJ learned to trust his team mates and to pick and choose his moments the Bulls became near unstoppable.

Are you really using a playoff series from his comeback year after being out of the NBA for over a full season to show how even Jordan lost games? And then you talk about how horrible his numbers were in a 1996 series in which he won the Finals MVP? Have I not said here already that stats are meaningless at telling the whole story of a game? Tony Parker was 0-10 tonight to start the game and finished 7-18. Horrible shooting performance based on the stat sheet, but the stat sheet fails to show just how dominate he was during a stretch in the 3rd quarter once he got it going. It fails to show how his baskets were equaling the Heats and keeping them out of reach at making a run.

Look everyone fails it's the nature of the game. Jordan himself has even admitted that his entire career is full of failures.

"I can accept failure, everyone fails at something. But I can't accept not trying."
-Michael Jordan

Lebron far to often doesn't seem like he is trying as hard as he can to win. He came out early tonight and was clearly the dominate force we all know he can be, but what happened to him over the next 3 quarters as the Spurs out scored the Heat by 33 points? It was like he came out and did his thing, and then just settled down and accepted defeat. I know his team sucked and without Wade it was likely hopeless, but Lebron or Bosh one should have been far more demanding of the ball during key stretches of the 2nd and 3rd quarter when the game was still winnable.

I know very few agree with me, but I'd rather have a 100% healthy Wade on the floor in these games than Lebron. Even though Lebron is the more talented player, Wade is just more reliable at being a 1 man show when needed. When both of them are healthy on the court they are near impossible to stop, but I think Wade is much harder to stop on his own than Lebron.

Anyway one last Jordan quote as it's fitting after this NBA Finals.

"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
-Michael Jordan[/QUOTE]

 

[gordontrue]

Those that want to make a big deal of Finals record, ask yourself this. If you took LeBron off his team and replaced him with Jordan, how would those teams fare in each of the Finals?

2007 cavs with Jordan... I'll take the Spurs easily
2011 Heat with Jordan... I'll take the Heat. LeBron didn't play well and Jordan could have made up some ground there
2014 Heat with Jordan... Taking the Spurs. The way they played, it's an easy choice.


I'll say it again, losing in the Finals is better than losing earlier in the playoffs but somehow so many people act like it's not.

Through 29 playoff series:
LeBron is 22-7 with 2 titles
Jordan was 22-7 with 3 titles

 

[Jims_Doors]

Early in Jordan's career they failed because he tried to carry the team from start to finish every game. Early in his career he relied heavily on his talent to control his game. When they went up against a team like the Celtics or Pistons that could beat him up and shut him down the Bulls lost.

It's not about carrying your team from start to finish. It's about understanding when and where you need to insert your will on the game. Once MJ learned to trust his team mates and to pick and choose his moments the Bulls became near unstoppable. MJ learned he could take some nights off when his team was rolling and let himself be carried, and then on nights were his team struggled he would just take over and drop 45+ points like it was nothing. Anyone see a 40+ point night from Lebron in these Finals? Heat sure could have used it.

Are you really using a playoff series from his comeback year after being out of the NBA for over a full season to show how even Jordan lost games? And then you talk about how horrible his numbers were in a 1996 series in which he won the Finals MVP? Have I not said here already that stats are meaningless at telling the whole story of a game? Tony Parker was 0-10 tonight to start the game and finished 7-18. Horrible shooting performance based on the stat sheet, but the stat sheet fails to show just how dominate he was during a stretch in the 3rd quarter once he got it going. It fails to show how his baskets were equaling the Heats and keeping them out of reach at making a run.

Look everyone fails it's the nature of the game. Jordan himself has even admitted that his entire career is full of failures.

"I can accept failure, everyone fails at something. But I can't accept not trying."
-Michael Jordan

Lebron far to often doesn't seem like he is trying as hard as he can to win. He came out early tonight and was clearly the dominate force we all know he can be, but what happened to him over the next 3 quarters as the Spurs out scored the Heat by 33 points? It was like he came out and did his thing, and then just settled down and accepted defeat. I know his team sucked and without Wade it was likely hopeless, but Lebron or Bosh one should have been far more demanding of the ball during key stretches of the 2nd and 3rd quarter when the game was still winnable.

I know very few agree with me, but I'd rather have a 100% healthy Wade on the floor in these games than Lebron. Even though Lebron is the more talented player, Wade is just more reliable at being a 1 man show when needed. When both of them are healthy on the court they are near impossible to stop, but I think Wade is much harder to stop on his own than Lebron.

Anyway one last Jordan quote as it's fitting after this NBA Finals.

"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
-Michael Jordan

Yes, I'm using the Orlando series. Safe to say his 5th game back from a 17mo. lay off when he dropped 55 on my Knicks, that nobody was saying "he looks rusty!!" or "he needs more time to get back into the flow." They were saying "he looks like he never quit the game to go play baseball" So yes.... safe to say he was 100% back by the time they faced Orlando.

Stats are meaningless? That's how players are judged and compared to each other. Nobody watches every game possible for the eye test. If it was reported that MJ (or any other player) put up 35pts and 8 rebounds you would think he had a great game. But then look at the stat sheet and see he shot 10-30 with 15pts from the free throw line, then you see that he didn't have a great shooting night and didn't play that well.....correct?

All I'm saying or doing is agreeing with that guy who wrote the column. The more you read about MJ these days, the more he's made out to be perfect player who did no wrong. Yes, he is the greatest and I watched him for years.... but at times lately he's getting overrated by America.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

And if Lebron retired after this year, they would say he is scared and running away. Twitter would blow up and hate Lebron. They would say he abandoned his team and players, but MJ can do what he wants bc he only cares about himself.

Lebron wouldn't be going out after a 3peat, now would he?...

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

I've never been a fan of the Lebron/MJ and Lebron/Kobe comparisons. I've always felt that Lebron's game favors Magic Johnson much more that MJ or Kobe.

Magic was always a player that would look to get his teammates going, see what everybody had that game and then he'd "fill in the blanks". That's what Lebron does for the most part. The biggest difference that I see is that Magic was a little quicker at figuring out what the team needed from him and acting on it than Lebron is. He was also a little quicker to "call his own number" if a play didn't look like it was going to work. For example, the famous "junior, junior skyhook" from the series vs. Boston came on a play that was designed for Kareem. Magic wasn't comfortable with the defense (if memory serves, the Celtics left Rambis open and doubled Kareem), so he improvised. Lebron doesn't seem as quick to do that.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

I'll take LeBron over Jordan

Just my opinion

You are entitled to be wrong...

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Yes, I'm using the Orlando series. Safe to say his 5th game back from a 17mo. lay off when he dropped 55 on my Knicks, that nobody was saying "he looks rusty!!" or "he needs more time to get back into the flow." They were saying "he looks like he never quit the game to go play baseball" So yes.... safe to say he was 100% back by the time they faced Orlando.

Stats are meaningless? That's how players are judged and compared to each other. Nobody watches every game possible for the eye test. If it was reported that MJ (or any other player) put up 35pts and 8 rebounds you would think he had a great game. But then look at the stat sheet and see he shot 10-30 with 15pts from the free throw line, then you see that he didn't have a great shooting night and didn't play that well.....correct?

All I'm saying or doing is agreeing with that guy who wrote the column. The more you read about MJ these days, the more he's made out to be perfect player who did no wrong. Yes, he is the greatest and I watched him for years.... but at times lately he's getting overrated by America.

Ever heard the phrase, "Flashes of his younger self,"? Like they used describing Wade earlier in the playoffs. Or Manu.

He wasn't the Jordan that left the game nearly 2 years before. But the next year, well, we know how that turned out.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Early in Jordan's career they failed because he tried to carry the team from start to finish every game. Early in his career he relied heavily on his talent to control his game. When they went up against a team like the Celtics or Pistons that could beat him up and shut him down the Bulls lost.

It's not about carrying your team from start to finish. It's about understanding when and where you need to insert your will on the game. Once MJ learned to trust his team mates and to pick and choose his moments the Bulls became near unstoppable. MJ learned he could take some nights off when his team was rolling and let himself be carried, and then on nights were his team struggled he would just take over and drop 45+ points like it was nothing. Anyone see a 40+ point night from Lebron in these Finals? Heat sure could have used it.

Are you really using a playoff series from his comeback year after being out of the NBA for over a full season to show how even Jordan lost games? And then you talk about how horrible his numbers were in a 1996 series in which he won the Finals MVP? Have I not said here already that stats are meaningless at telling the whole story of a game? Tony Parker was 0-10 tonight to start the game and finished 7-18. Horrible shooting performance based on the stat sheet, but the stat sheet fails to show just how dominate he was during a stretch in the 3rd quarter once he got it going. It fails to show how his baskets were equaling the Heats and keeping them out of reach at making a run.

Look everyone fails it's the nature of the game. Jordan himself has even admitted that his entire career is full of failures.

"I can accept failure, everyone fails at something. But I can't accept not trying."
-Michael Jordan

Lebron far to often doesn't seem like he is trying as hard as he can to win. He came out early tonight and was clearly the dominate force we all know he can be, but what happened to him over the next 3 quarters as the Spurs out scored the Heat by 33 points? It was like he came out and did his thing, and then just settled down and accepted defeat. I know his team sucked and without Wade it was likely hopeless, but Lebron or Bosh one should have been far more demanding of the ball during key stretches of the 2nd and 3rd quarter when the game was still winnable.

I know very few agree with me, but I'd rather have a 100% healthy Wade on the floor in these games than Lebron. Even though Lebron is the more talented player, Wade is just more reliable at being a 1 man show when needed. When both of them are healthy on the court they are near impossible to stop, but I think Wade is much harder to stop on his own than Lebron.

Anyway one last Jordan quote as it's fitting after this NBA Finals.

"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
-Michael Jordan

You would never catch MJ laughing on the bench after a loss.

 

[gpm1976]

Yes he got the guys he wanted.

doesn't change the fact that no one showed up...

Guys showed up and were hitting shots when Lebron would pass the ball. This was the worst team effort I've seen in a long time.