Michael Jordan is a fraud

[msgkings322]

Oh Wilt was DEFINITELY better. But the GOAT shit is about resume if you haven't seen a dude play

My 9 year old has watched videos of MJ but it's not the same as watching it live

His exact words to me were " he's good Dad but he doesn't look any better than Kobe to me " ( who he also hasn't seen )

Other than baseball where oldheads rule and the old players get MORE love than they should every other sport requires you to be verifiably better than someone else if you want to stay in the GOAT debate

You need to have the MOST of something or be ranked really high on multiple things statistically

MJ was awesome but he just doesn't have the actual data to keep him in the GOAT debate once the people who saw him are gone

By 2050 he will probably be a fringe top 10 guy all time ( like Wilt is now ) and likely behind numerous players we'd have him ahead of right now

Its the fascinating part of these debates

You make some good points but saying this is "likely" is going too far. Every case is different and 6-0 in the finals plus all the MVPs and other accolades, not to mention being the biggest star the NBA has ever had probably keeps MJ in the GOAT debate forever, like Babe Ruth.

But as you touch on, there's never a 'winner', these things will always be argued about and that's the fun of it. No way to 'prove' who was best, at the very top level all these guys were among the best ever.

 

[rmilia1]

You make some good points but saying this is "likely" is going too far. Every case is different and 6-0 in the finals plus all the MVPs and other accolades, not to mention being the biggest star the NBA has ever had probably keeps MJ in the GOAT debate forever, like Babe Ruth.

But as you touch on, there's never a 'winner', these things will always be argued about and that's the fun of it. No way to 'prove' who was best, at the very top level all these guys were among the best ever.

Imo the 6-0 thing gets too much play

But i know some peeps disagree

For me though guys are competing for a ring every year they're in the league. Losing before the finals isn't somehow better than losing in the Finals

Like imo there's not a world where going 6-0 in the Finals is BETTER than going say 6-4 in the Finals

It's either the same or worse but certainly not better

That's opinion stuff though ( but I've never had anyone be able to explain to me how winning the same ain't if rings but making less Finals is better either lol )

 

[msgkings322]

Imo the 6-0 thing gets too much play

But i know some peeps disagree

For me though guys are competing for a ring every year they're in the league. Losing before the finals isn't somehow better than losing in the Finals

Like imo there's not a world where going 6-0 in the Finals is BETTER than going say 6-4 in the Finals

It's either the same or worse but certainly not better

That's opinion stuff though ( but I've never had anyone be able to explain to me how winning the same ain't if rings but making less Finals is better either lol )

I’m definitely NOT one of the people who thinks losing in the finals is a demerit against your legacy. But 6 rings is a lot and more than all other GOAT contenders (except Kareem, tied)

I still think your take goes way too far regarding him fading from the debate. He will always be in the conversation

 

[rmilia1]

I’m definitely NOT one of the people who thinks losing in the finals is a demerit against your legacy. But 6 rings is a lot and more than all other GOAT contenders (except Kareem, tied)

I still think your take goes way too far regarding him fading from the debate. He will always be in the conversation

Probably. I guess ot depends on what you mean by in the debate

Like right now is basically

MJ
Kareem
LBJ

You get the "Russell has 11 rings guy" too and there's a smattering for Magic/Kobe but those 3 are the top 3

Im not sure MJ will be part of that group in 25 years. At all.

But i could be wrong. He will definitely be helped by there being plenty of video of him unlike a lot of the old timers now

 

[msgkings322]

Probably. I guess ot depends on what you mean by in the debate

Like right now is basically

MJ
Kareem
LBJ

You get the "Russell has 11 rings guy" too and there's a smattering for Magic/Kobe but those 3 are the top 3

Im not sure MJ will be part of that group in 25 years. At all.

But i could be wrong. He will decibel me keeps by there being plenty of video of him unlike a lot of the old timers now

I hear you, that’s how you see it. I disagree strongly. People still talk about Babe Ruth as the GOAT and Jordan dominated the sport every bit as much

 

[rmilia1]

I hear you, that’s how you see it. I disagree strongly. People still talk about Babe Ruth as the GOAT and Jordan dominated the sport every bit as much

Baseball is different though

That is the only sport where the older players actually get more credit than the newer players. No clue why. Probably because the fans skew older and more traditional

But there isn't another sport where a guy is in the GOAT debate unless he's got the raw stats to back that up comparatively

If we are both around in 25 years we can reevaluate lol

 

[msgkings322]

Baseball is different though

That is the only sport where the older players actually get more credit than the newer players. No clue why. Probably because the fans skew older and more traditional

But there isn't another sport where a guy is in the GOAT debate unless he's got the raw stats to back that up comparatively

If we are both around in 25 years we can reevaluate lol

Sure but I’m very confident about my take here

 

[Stakesarehigh]

No active player in their prime will push Lebron, Jordan or Kareem.

Wemby is probably the only one with a shot.

 

[msgkings322]

No active player in their prime will push Lebron, Jordan or Kareem.

Wemby is probably the only one with a shot.

And even if Wemby enters the chat he won’t knock one of those 3 out. There might be 4 contenders someday if Wemby delivers at that level

 

[tlance]

If he was not far superior he was clearly better and that is a difference maker when comparing the 2. And he never shied away from the big shot, you can't say that about Lebron in his early years. What players think of him does not matter, we are comparing on the court performance. And nobody was better than Michael Jordan IMO.

He really wasn’t clearly better defensively.

Pippen would usually draw the toughest defensive assignments. He was a better defender than MJ IMO. MJ was great, but also somewhat overrated defensively. He hunted defensive stats a bit too much.

Lebron is bigger and stronger. Although his defensive prime did not last as long as MJ’s (at least in part because MJ had Pippen) LeBron’s peak was arguably the best perimeter defender in the league who could also guard 1-4.

And trust me when I tell you that NOBODY was a bigger MJ fan than me.

 

[tlance]

Imo the 6-0 thing gets too much play

But i know some peeps disagree

For me though guys are competing for a ring every year they're in the league. Losing before the finals isn't somehow better than losing in the Finals

Like imo there's not a world where going 6-0 in the Finals is BETTER than going say 6-4 in the Finals

It's either the same or worse but certainly not better

That's opinion stuff though ( but I've never had anyone be able to explain to me how winning the same ain't if rings but making less Finals is better either lol )

Totally agree.

Where I disagree with you is with regards to Wilt.

Wilt gets knocked because of the lack of competition throughout the league during his era.

NBA was not a destination job that millions of kids around the world grew up dreaming about back then.

 

[trojanfan12]

Probably. I guess ot depends on what you mean by in the debate

Like right now is basically

MJ
Kareem
LBJ

You get the "Russell has 11 rings guy" too and there's a smattering for Magic/Kobe but those 3 are the top 3

Im not sure MJ will be part of that group in 25 years. At all.

But i could be wrong. He will definitely be helped by there being plenty of video of him unlike a lot of the old timers now

You may be right that MJ eventually fades, but it's going to be a while. It's only been over the last few years that Russell has been effectively removed from the convo. And even at that, as you point out, you still get the occasional "Russell has 11 rings" guy.

I kind of agree with @msgkings322 re: MJ always being in the debate...but I think it could fade to a version of Russell having 11 rings where you have the "MJ was 6-0 in the finals" folks.

 

[msgkings322]

You may be right that MJ eventually fades, but it's going to be a while. It's only been over the last few years that Russell has been effectively removed from the convo. And even at that, as you point out, you still get the occasional "Russell has 11 rings" guy.

I kind of agree with @msgkings322 re: MJ always being in the debate...but I think it could fade to a version of Russell having 11 rings where you have the "MJ was 6-0 in the finals" folks.

But that's all Russell has, MJ has a lot more than 6-0

 

[trojanfan12]

But that's all Russell has, MJ has a lot more than 6-0

5x MVP
12x All Star
11x 1st or 2nd team All NBA
4x Rebounding champ

Wasn't he 11-0 in the finals?

He has more than just the 11 rings.

 

[msgkings322]

5x MVP
12x All Star
11x 1st or 2nd team All NBA
4x Rebounding champ

Wasn't he 11-0 in the finals?

He has more than just the 11 rings.

All vs nothing competition. Come on dude, I don't have to explain to you why MJ's GOAT case is >>>>> than Russell's

 

[trojanfan12]

All vs nothing competition. Come on dude, I don't have to explain to you why MJ's GOAT case is >>>>> than Russell's

You may need to go back and re-read what I wrote...maybe if you do, you can point out where I said MJ's GOAT case isn't >>>>> than Russell's because I sure can't.

I just pushed back on your claim that 11 rings is all he has because it's not.

Just as you're saying that MJ will always be in the GOAT convo, I know that there were those who used to say the same about Russell.

If athletes only get better over time, then it stands to reason that there will be a time when there are players better and more talented than MJ, just as we now say about Russell. Hell, we already have one that many say is better than MJ.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

The take on Russell is not comparable to me. He was the first real champ. The nba was on tape delay and shit. Skill set wise him getting 5 MVPs is ridiculous. But the league had like 95 dudes lol.

It's just not the same as MJ and the post 1980 era

 

[msgkings322]

The take on Russell is not comparable to me. He was the first real champ. The nba was on tape delay and shit. Skill set wise him getting 5 MVPs is ridiculous. But the league had like 95 dudes lol.

It's just not the same as MJ and the post 1980 era

Good point, there were literally 8 teams in the league so less than 100 total players all year, half white guys with real jobs in the offseason.

It's just not comparable

 

[tlance]

Good point, there were literally 8 teams in the league so less than 100 total players all year, half white guys with real jobs in the offseason.

It's just not comparable

If you took the average NBA player from 1960, and put them in a Time Machine where they showed up today.

Would they be good enough to be an impact player at the D3 college level?

I’m not sure.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

Oh Wilt was DEFINITELY better. But the GOAT shit is about resume if you haven't seen a dude play

My 9 year old has watched videos of MJ but it's not the same as watching it live

His exact words to me were " he's good Dad but he doesn't look any better than Kobe to me " ( who he also hasn't seen )

Other than baseball where oldheads rule and the old players get MORE love than they should every other sport requires you to be verifiably better than someone else if you want to stay in the GOAT debate

You need to have the MOST of something or be ranked really high on multiple things statistically

MJ was awesome but he just doesn't have the actual data to keep him in the GOAT debate once the people who saw him are gone

By 2050 he will probably be a fringe top 10 guy all time ( like Wilt is now ) and likely behind numerous players we'd have him ahead of right now

Its the fascinating part of these debates

Totally agree with all of this, which again goes to my point that so many who go with Lebron as the GOAT never saw MJ play.

Another thing I'm torn on is the Celtics and Lakers of the 80's obviously are stacked with all time greats. Just awesome teams. But what would they be today with the athletes just so much better now? Obviously the game has changed with all the 3's but I have a hard time believing Magic would not still be Magic, Bird never relied on athleticism and I believe could still fire step back daggers. Both of those teams, especially the Celtics, passed the ball so well. But how would they look against this Celtics defense that is so long and quick and would take away many of those passes. Thoughts?