Michael Jordan is a fraud

[tlance]

Yes and all the Trumpies are saying is it's possible to rig an election. Same mindset.

LOL.

In this case?

Doesn’t even have to be rigged. Could be a mistake.

You ever kept an official basketball scorebook?

each player has 1 line in the book. Scorekeeper writes in 2 for every bucket on their line. Circles for every FT attempt that get slashed through on the makes.

Well, those lines don’t have that much space. You run out of room when a player scores that much. His totals going to run over into other columns.

Really easy to miscount.

 

[msgkings322]

LOL.

In this case?

Doesn’t even have to be rigged. Could be a mistake.

You ever kept an official basketball scorebook?

each player has 1 line in the book. Scorekeeper writes in 2 for every bucket on their line. Circles for every FT attempt that get slashed through on the makes.

Well, those lines don’t have that much space. You run out of room when a player scores that much. His totals going to run over into other columns.

Really easy to miscount.

Okey doke

 

[tlance]

Okey doke

You saying it not even possible for 1 guy to get it wrong is honestly pretty crazy.

 

[msgkings322]

You saying it not even possible for 1 guy to get it wrong is honestly pretty crazy.

I didn't say it was impossible

 

[tlance]

I didn't say it was impossible

Um….

You said it was dumb for me to question whether or not the 100 was legit.

When all I ever said was that I had reason to be skeptical. Not that I think it wasn’t legit.

So yeah, you kind of did.

Bulls stat guys fudging those stats in the 80s and 90s is way crazier with all the eyeballs on those Bulls games.

How many people were there for Wilt’s 100 game? 1000?

Whatever it was, doesn’t compare to a TV audience.

 

[msgkings322]

Um….

You said it was dumb for me to question whether or not the 100 was legit.

It is

When all I ever said was that I had reason to be skeptical. Not that I think it wasn’t legit.

OK, it's less dumb to be skeptical but still pretty conspiratorial

So yeah, you kind of did.

No

Bulls stat guys fudging those stats in the 80s and 90s is way crazier with all the eyeballs on those Bulls games.

How many people were there for Wilt’s 100 game? 1000?

Whatever it was, doesn’t compare to a TV audience.

This matters so little and here we are still discussing. The chances Wilt scored less than 100 points that day is so tiny as to be meaningless to me.

 

[rmilia1]

MJ is still an all time great

But he IS the most overrated defender of all time

Barely top 150 all time in defensive rating and that's with spending the majority of his career guarding the oppositions 2nd or 3rd option

 

[tlance]

It is

OK, it's less dumb to be skeptical but still pretty conspiratorial

No

This matters so little and here we are still discussing. The chances Wilt scored less than 100 points that day is so tiny as to be meaningless to me.

Great.

I’m skeptical and you aren’t.

Calling me dumb for being skeptical is dumb.

Time to move on.

 

[YourFriendGannon]

That is a wild story.

Yet another advantage for players of past eras.

Much harder to inflate stats today.

Memphis' home scorekeeping was accused of this in the middle of the season in which Jaren Jackson won dPOY. I guess it became a big deal because of the fact Jackson was the Vegas frontrunner for the award at the time.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

I'm pretty convinced that most of those who bash MJ or pick LeBron over him as the GOAT are too young to have seen Michael Jordan play. For those of us who did we know that he was an elite defensive player regardless of this article, far superior to James in that regard. He never shied away from the big shot starting as a college freshman, we just can't say that about LeBron. MJ was the GOAT.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

I'm pretty convinced that most of those who bash MJ or pick LeBron over him as the GOAT are too young to have seen Michael Jordan play. For those of us who did we know that he was an elite defensive player regardless of this article, far superior to James in that regard. He never shied away from the big shot starting as a college freshman, we just can't say that about LeBron. MJ was the GOAT.

He was not far superior to Lebron defensively. Better..eh...sure.

I'm old enough to have seen both in their prime. It's 1A and 1B. It's a matter of taste.

One thing you won't and don't see in regards to Lebron is former teammates coming out and bashing him like Jordan's have. And lebron has had way more teammates.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

He was not far superior to Lebron defensively. Better..eh...sure.

I'm old enough to have seen both in their prime. It's 1A and 1B. It's a matter of taste.

One thing you won't and don't see in regards to Lebron is former teammates coming out and bashing him like Jordan's have. And lebron has had way more teammates.

If he was not far superior he was clearly better and that is a difference maker when comparing the 2. And he never shied away from the big shot, you can't say that about Lebron in his early years. What players think of him does not matter, we are comparing on the court performance. And nobody was better than Michael Jordan IMO.

 

[Stakesarehigh]

If he was not far superior he was clearly better and that is a difference maker when comparing the 2. And he never shied away from the big shot, you can't say that about Lebron in his early years. What players think of him does not matter, we are comparing on the court performance. And nobody was better than Michael Jordan IMO.

Yes..in your opinion. That's what I said.

It's not definite one way or the other.

Off court impressions of former teammates relates to their on court feelings of him.

 

[trojanfan12]

I'm pretty convinced that most of those who bash MJ or pick LeBron over him as the GOAT are too young to have seen Michael Jordan play. For those of us who did we know that he was an elite defensive player regardless of this article, far superior to James in that regard. He never shied away from the big shot starting as a college freshman, we just can't say that about LeBron. MJ was the GOAT.

I have seen both MJ and Lebron's entire careers.

As for shying away from big shots. Never heard of Steve Kerr or John Paxson?

MJ was a bit better defensively (not "far superior" or even "clearly better"). Lebron is a better passer and has better handles.

The MJ/Lebron comparison is stupid anyway as they played differently.

Lebron/Magic and Kobe/MJ are much better comparisons.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

I have seen both MJ and Lebron's entire careers.

As for shying away from big shots. Never heard of Steve Kerr or John Paxson?

MJ was a bit better defensively (not "far superior" or even "clearly better"). Lebron is a better passer and has better handles.

The MJ/Lebron comparison is stupid anyway as they played differently.

Lebron/Magic and Kobe/MJ are much better comparisons.

Not sure what Kerr and Paxson have to do with the conversation. Never said MJ took EVERY big shot, they were wide open of course because of the focus on MJ. What we do know is early in his career Lebron did pass on open shots with the game on the line and MJ didn't very often if ever.

I agree that LJ is a better passer, not convinced about the handle

 

[Stlducks]

It is a pointless debate trying to compare players from different eras like this. Yes, today's game has more stats and more advanced stats to look closer at a performance. But players today also have better health, better fitness, better training technology, etc.

MJ has 6 rings and never lost a final and is known as the big game player.
LBJ is a top 3 player.

Everything else arguing between them is just splitting hairs for no reason but to argue.

 

[rmilia1]

I'm pretty convinced that most of those who bash MJ or pick LeBron over him as the GOAT are too young to have seen Michael Jordan play. For those of us who did we know that he was an elite defensive player regardless of this article, far superior to James in that regard. He never shied away from the big shot starting as a college freshman, we just can't say that about LeBron. MJ was the GOAT.

That's how GOAT debates always work

The guy you grew up watching who was the best in the league during that time is always the greatest you ever saw

Every generation has a GOAT and the people from that era think that guy is the dude

Everyone before him "didn't play vs the same level of competition" and everyone after is playing "after the league got soft"

Ultimately the reason MJ is currently seen as the GOAT is that the people who get paid to talk about these types of things are of the age where they're going to think MJ is the GOAT and the majority of the people discussing it are of that age too


When i was a kid the debate was Russell/Wilt and new guy to the debate was Kareem

And everyone said the new guys were soft, it was an expansion era etc etc


Over time Wilt dropped out of that debate because the people who brought him up got old and died and his resume wasnt good enough to stay in the debate

He didn't have the accolades or rings or accomplishments of Russell ( who stayed in the debate ) or Kareem

I personally think that's what is going to happen to MJ. He's closer to Wilt than he is Russell or Kareem. He had the rings which will help but he doesn't have the most rings so really MJs only argument for GOAT is eye test stuff. Stiff you had to see.

As time passes less and less people will have seen it and there just isn't enough actual meat on the bone to keep him in the debate long term


He's not the BEST at literally anything verifiably. Everything he's seen as the best at is subjective stuff you had to see. "Clutch", "competitor", "will to win" etc

That's not sustainable long term

 

[trojanfan12]

Not sure what Kerr and Paxson have to do with the conversation. Never said MJ took EVERY big shot, they were wide open of course because of the focus on MJ. What we do know is early in his career Lebron did pass on open shots with the game on the line and MJ didn't very often if ever.

I agree that LJ is a better passer, not convinced about the handle

You implied that Lebron shies away from big shots which is flat out wrong. The implication also suggests that MJ never passed off or "shied away" from big shots which is also wrong.

And MJ did pass up those shots which is what Kerr and Paxson have to do with it.

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

That's how GOAT debates always work

The guy you grew up watching who was the best in the league during that time is always the greatest you ever saw

Every generation has a GOAT and the people from that era think that guy is the dude

Everyone before him "didn't play vs the same level of competition" and everyone after is playing "after the league got soft"

Ultimately the reason MJ is currently seen as the GOAT is that the people who get paid to talk about these types of things are of the age where they're going to think MJ is the GOAT and the majority of the people discussing it are of that age too


When i was a kid the debate was Russell/Wilt and new guy to the debate was Kareem

And everyone said the new guys were soft, it was an expansion era etc etc


Over time Wilt dropped out of that debate because the people who brought him up got old and died and his resume wasnt good enough to stay in the debate

He didn't have the accolades or rings or accomplishments of Russell ( who stayed in the debate ) or Kareem

I personally think that's what is going to happen to MJ. He's closer to Wilt than he is Russell or Kareem. He had the rings which will help but he doesn't have the most rings so really MJs only argument for GOAT is eye test stuff. Stiff you had to see.

As time passes less and less people will have seen it and there just isn't enough actual meat on the bone to keep him in the debate long term


He's not the BEST at literally anything verifiably. Everything he's seen as the best at is subjective stuff you had to see. "Clutch", "competitor", "will to win" etc

That's not sustainable long term

I agree with this and it gies with what I was saying earlier However I didn't really see Wilt. But I recognize how great he was. A look at his numbers show how dominant he was, when he was criticized for not passing enough he answered that by leading the league in assists. As a center.

So I don't share your opinion on Wilt Chamberlin. Had he had Russel's team and coach he may very well still be the GOAT.

 

[rmilia1]

I agree with this and it gies with what I was saying earlier However I didn't really see Wilt. But I recognize how great he was. A look at his numbers show how dominant he was, when he was criticized for not passing enough he answered that by leading the league in assists. As a center.

So I don't share your opinion on Wilt Chamberlin. Had he had Russel's team and coach he may very well still be the GOAT.

Oh Wilt was DEFINITELY better. But the GOAT shit is about resume if you haven't seen a dude play

My 9 year old has watched videos of MJ but it's not the same as watching it live

His exact words to me were " he's good Dad but he doesn't look any better than Kobe to me " ( who he also hasn't seen )

Other than baseball where oldheads rule and the old players get MORE love than they should every other sport requires you to be verifiably better than someone else if you want to stay in the GOAT debate

You need to have the MOST of something or be ranked really high on multiple things statistically

MJ was awesome but he just doesn't have the actual data to keep him in the GOAT debate once the people who saw him are gone

By 2050 he will probably be a fringe top 10 guy all time ( like Wilt is now ) and likely behind numerous players we'd have him ahead of right now

Its the fascinating part of these debates