Michael Jordan is a fraud

[Albuquerque Rams]

So you choose to ignore the article I mentioned that goes against what you wanna believe? Alrighty then.

The footage matters more than what some schmuck wrote down on a paper.

 

[Wamu]

The footage matters more than what some schmuck wrote down on a paper.

On this is gonna be fun. Hope you'll be around more in the NBA threads.

 

[tlance]

I realize I'm months behind on this since I didn't have an account here unti recently, but I just wanted to make a few points.

1. Stats are never the primary determining factor in DPOY voting. If they were, Dennis Rodman would have never won the award. So even if some of his steals and blocks are inflated, it doesn't mean he didn't make a good defensive play, albeit one that doesn't show up on a stat sheet.

2. His claims about the home scorekeeper inflating his stats are based on the large difference between home and away steals. There's two problems here A). By his own admission, the major discrepancy was only in this season. Why would the home scorekeeper only do it that one year but never any season afterward? B). He never considers the possibility that visiting scorekeepers could also be depressing his numbers, thus making this argument disingenuous.

3. Under the NBA rulebook, most of the plays he cites as being not real steals are, in fact, steals. He's basing this on his personal bias, not objective fact.

4. This agenda-driven nonsense is actually an argument AGAINST LeBron's GOAT case; because like most Bron GOAT arguments, it's based on tearing another player down rather than simply letting LeBron's resume speak for itself.

Good post.

The main thing here that I want to respond to is about the defensive stats.

We have had quite a few conversations about this over the years, but yes. There is no such thing as a completely reliable defensive stat. They can be used to add context, but that is about it. All are biased toward certain simple stats and they can’t be used to rank players as defenders.

As for the steal thing…

I don’t know man. That article was pretty damning. I think it would be really difficult to make the case that the Bulls scorekeeper wasn’t intentionally padding MJ’s stats during the year in question.

With or without the fabricated stats, MJ was an all time great perimeter defender.

 

[trojanfan12]

This argument is as silly as asking if you would rather be punched in the face by Ali or Tyson in their prime.

Ali. Most of his knockouts were from accumulation of punches. Tyson could remove your head. lol

 

[logic]

Ali. Most of his knockouts were from accumulation of punches. Tyson could remove your head. lol

Probably true, but Ali was a pretty big and powerful guy

 

[trojanfan12]

Probably true, but Ali was a pretty big and powerful guy

He definitely was a big dude and he certainly wasn't without power. But Ali was a true boxer and relied more on hand speed and movement.

Prime Tyson treated fights like he had a cab waiting with the meter still running.

 

[Wamu]

He definitely was a big dude and he certainly wasn't without power. But Ali was a true boxer and relied more on hand speed and movement.

Prime Tyson treated fights like he had a cab waiting with the meter still running. <----

Obviously don't remember prime Ali but I remember prime Iron Mike. Like he had a cab waiting, that's great.

Can't remember what year it was. I was in HS and Tyson was fighting someone. By the time I got off work he had KO'd the guy in the first round.

 

[trojanfan12]

Obviously don't remember prime Ali but I remember prime Iron Mike. Like he had a cab waiting, that's great.

Can't remember what year it was. I was in HS and Tyson was fighting someone. By the time I got off work he had KO'd the guy in the first round.

In his prime, if you were running late for a Tyson fight...you might as well have stayed home because the fight was already over. lol

 

[broncosmitty]

In his prime, if you were running late for a Tyson fight...you might as well have stayed home because the fight was already over. lol

Watched his pre-Douglass fights a few weeks back.

Took about 8 minutes.

 

[trojanfan12]

Watched his pre-Douglass fights a few weeks back.

Took about 8 minutes.

Yep, and the funny thing was, even though the fights were short, you somehow didn't feel cheated paying to watch them.

 

[broncosmitty]

Yep, and the funny thing was, even though the fights were short, you somehow didn't feel cheated paying to watch them.

Wish I’d have watched some of those live. He was out of prison before I did that.

 

[Skinsfan21]

My unbiased, greatest starting 5 of all-time:

PG - Bob Cousy
SG - Jayson Tatum
SF - Paul Pierce
PF - Larry Bird
C - Bill Russell

----------

*note* - the above list took 100's of hours of unbiased, analytical research to compile.

I’ll give you my starting top 5.

PG Stockton
sG. Jordan
Sf. Pippen
PF. Duncan
C. Shaq


Good luck

 

[msgkings322]

I’ll give you my starting top 5.

PG Stockton
sG. Jordan
Sf. Pippen
PF. Duncan
C. Shaq


Good luck

PG Curry
SG Wade
SF LeBron
PF Giannis
C. Jokic

Be a good series

 

[gohuskresurrected]

James is a decent to good defender at moments. But all his highlights are running down a fast break for a block or some off the ball block. Jason Terry embarrassed the guy in the finals. Anybody could see that the reason he looked so "great" against D Rose was because he had help if Rose took him off the dribble for the trap but his own coaching staff drank the kool aid thinking that meant he could guard Jet in a legit 1 on 1 situation in the finals. Jordan was a ++ defender. I mean any defender during Hakeems prime was unworthy for that award but he was the best guarding 2 in the league for most of his career.

 

[Wamu]

James is a decent to good defender at moments. But all his highlights are running down a fast break for a block or some off the ball block. Jason Terry embarrassed the guy in the finals. Anybody could see that the reason he looked so "great" against D Rose was because he had help if Rose took him off the dribble for the trap but his own coaching staff drank the kool aid thinking that meant he could guard Jet in a legit 1 on 1 situation in the finals. Jordan was a ++ defender. I mean any defender during Hakeems prime was unworthy for that award but he was the best guarding 2 in the league for most of his career.

Ain't it odd how LeBron is only compared to MJ? No other player is judged that way. And LeBron was more than just a "good defender at moments" otherwise he wouldn't have made five 1st team defensive selections (and one 2nd team).

On a scale of 1 to 10 how much do you hate him?

 

[Wamu]

I’ll give you my starting top 5.

PG Stockton
sG. Jordan
Sf. Pippen
PF. Duncan
C. Shaq


Good luck

Steph
MJ
LeBron
Duncan
Jokic

 

[msgkings322]

Steph
MJ
LeBron
Duncan
Jokic

You added 2 more though. With Curry you didn't necessarily need to swap out Hakeem. Not saying it's a bad move just noticed it.

 

[gohuskresurrected]

Ain't it odd how LeBron is only compared to MJ? No other player is judged that way. And LeBron was more than just a "good defender at moments" otherwise he wouldn't have made five 1st team defensive selections (and one 2nd team).

On a scale of 1 to 10 how much do you hate him?

He's an all time great. I don't hate him. It's the fan boys who want to say he was perfect that gets on my nerves. Let's talk Pippen then. Anybody with two eyes can see that Pippen was a much better defender than James ever was. Like I said, he played good transition and off the ball help defense but he was nothing to talk about manned up to a guy. No way was he ever a lock down defender.

 

[Wamu]

You added 2 more though. With Curry you didn't necessarily need to swap out Hakeem. Not saying it's a bad move just noticed it.

I swapped out Hakeem for Jokic because he can hit 3's. But obviously take a big hit on the defensive without the Dream. Not easy for me to do as Hakeem's one of my all time favorites.

This list would be so much easier if it was starting five + five more.

 

[Wamu]

He's an all time great. I don't hate him. It's the fan boys who want to say he was perfect that gets on my nerves. Let's talk Pippen then. Anybody with two eyes can see that Pippen was a much better defender than James ever was. Like I said, he played good transition and off the ball help defense but he was nothing to talk about manned up to a guy. No way was he ever a lock down defender.

Yeah the LeBron fan-boys are annoying no doubt.

As far as Pippen. The best defensive 3 I've seen play. He has the edge there. But to me the big separation between the two is on the offensive end. Pippen wasn't the scorer or distributor LeBron is.

And I never claimed LeBron was a lock-down defender. He was never that. But he was a solid defender for a handful of years. Otherwise he doesn't have those 1st team selections I mentioned.