Seattle Mariners vs. Texas Rangers 8/16-8/18

[kdm1218]

Romeo is dead on there. Starters innings > Reliever innings. That's why starters are paid more and always will be. You get paid more money for the first 6 innings and the last inning than you ever will for pitching the 7th and 8th. That's how baseball works.

You get paid more for throwing the first 6 well. Ogando is still cheap at this point. If he continues at current level he will get raises in arbitration to a more modest amount and then will be replaced by a better player. What he has shown since Aug 2011 does not warrant re-signing to any substantial contract.

 

[DT LUNA]

I'm not disrespectful ... he's just not very good.

Someone thought I was being disrespectful so my response was in my defense and certainly not aimed at you or anyone else. Please do not take it that way.

 

[kdm1218]

^ that ... except its 80IP

1) He was pretty damn good in the rotation in 2011.

2) the innings he gives you as a starter are more valuable than the 70 innings he gives you out of the pen.

He has thrown 80.1 this year. 3.47 era 1.31 whip (career high) and 5-4 record. Constantly taxing the BP. I'm not saying this year with all the injuries there is a more viable option, but with these numbers and now maybe looking at 3rd DL stent cause he can't keep his arm from flaring up, as opposed to going 70 in a BP role if there had been no Harrison injury? Just my personal opinion that's the better spot in a perfect world and not the one with all these friggin injuries.

 

[TDs3nOut]

Romeo is dead on there. Starters innings > Reliever innings. That's why starters are paid more and always will be. You get paid more money for the first 6 innings and the last inning than you ever will for pitching the 7th and 8th. That's how baseball works.

Then the right way to think about things is to think about how good a relief innings a guy can pitch relative to his replacement and then do the same for starter innings. I think Alexi fairs better in bullpen innings than he does in starter innings. We still need starter innings, but they might best be gotten from someone other than Ogando.

 

[RevSader]

You get paid more for throwing the first 6 well. Ogando is still cheap at this point. If he continues at current level he will get raises in arbitration to a more modest amount and then will be replaced by a better player. What he has shown since Aug 2011 does not warrant re-signing to any substantial contract.

He's not a FA until 2017, so that's really irrelevant.

 

[Windingmywatch]

He was good before the ASB and ran out of gas later in the season, including in the playoffs when he did go back to the BP. I know he'd never started before that year, so obviously expect some fatigue. But ERA from 2.92 before break to 4.48 after, walks and hits also increased per innings (I'm just on espn stats and it doesn't show whip but I can see enough numbers to know that went up too). Then this year starting, arm trouble every few weeks. I don't know, I just don't see it any more than I see Feliz as a quality starter. Neither guy has "it" factor to me.

Ogando splits 2011 ... first half and second half. 2.92ERA vs 4.48ERA, 1.013WHIP vs 1.337WHIP.

I find that Baseballreference.com is a better source than ESPN for individual stats. Fastest way I pull up stats are to type the player's name and the word 'stats' in google and typically the first link is baseballreference.com.

BrooksBaseball.net: PITCHf/x Tool

 

[WastinSomeTime]

A starter may be more valuable than a reliever but if a person fits in the role of a reliever better then that is a mute point. Ogando will never and I mean never last as a starter and it is tougher to keep having to replace a starter than a reliever. And if Wolf takes his place I appreciate the big games he has had for us both as a reliever and a starter but he has pitched so little it is like he is coming off the DL.

 

[RevSader]

A starter may be more valuable than a reliever but if a person fits in the role of a reliever better then that is a mute point. Ogando will never and I mean never last as a starter and it is tougher to keep having to replace a starter than a reliever. And if Wolf takes his place I appreciate the big games he has had for us both as a reliever and a starter but he has pitched so little it is like he is coming off the DL.

I think it's impossible to know that thus far. So anything we say is speculation either way.

 

[WastinSomeTime]

He has thrown 80.1 this year. 3.47 era 1.31 whip (career high) and 5-4 record. Constantly taxing the BP. I'm not saying this year with all the injuries there is a more viable option, but with these numbers and now maybe looking at 3rd DL stent cause he can't keep his arm from flaring up, as opposed to going 70 in a BP role if there had been no Harrison injury? Just my personal opinion that's the better spot in a perfect world and not the one with all these friggin injuries.

Agree Kdm. If he makes it to the 7th inning it is a miracle.

 

[Windingmywatch]

Just an honest question Romeo (or anyone else who wants to chime in), if we make it a given that both are healthy and have similar stuff, consistency, dependability, mental toughness, etc... who would you rather take in the rotation right now to finish the year and go into next year, Ogando or Colby Lewis?

Totally irrelevant since Colby is shut down for the year. If you are penciling up a rotation card for 2014 ... might just want to wait until pitchers and catchers report in mid Feb. Anything before then is speculative as relates to either pitcher.

 

[Windingmywatch]

Agree Kdm. If he makes it to the 7th inning it is a miracle.

He was pitching in the 7th the other night.

 

[RevSader]

Totally irrelevant since Colby is shut down for the year. If you are penciling up a rotation card for 2014 ... might just want to wait until pitchers and catchers report in mid Feb. Anything before then is speculative as relates to either pitcher.

Also have to factor in age and velocity. I am not convinced an entirely healthy Colby Lewis can hit the required velocity to be effective anymore. I love the guy, but age does that. I think a totally healthy Ogando has much better velocity and is much younger. I would give him the edge in KDM's scenario. But like you said totally irrelevant at time being.

 

[Windingmywatch]

Ogando splits 2011 ... first half and second half. 2.92ERA vs 4.48ERA, 1.013WHIP vs 1.337WHIP.

I find that Baseballreference.com is a better source than ESPN for individual stats. Fastest way I pull up stats are to type the player's name and the word 'stats' in google and typically the first link is baseballreference.com.
[/QUOTE

Old link pasted above. This is the correct 2011 Ogando split link

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=ogandal01&year=2011&t=p#half

 

[darrylgann]

Someone thought I was being disrespectful so my response was in my defense and certainly not aimed at you or anyone else. Please do not take it that way.

How can you be not be respectful, it's underneath your name

 

[kdm1218]

Ogando splits 2011 ... first half and second half. 2.92ERA vs 4.48ERA, 1.013WHIP vs 1.337WHIP.

I find that Baseballreference.com is a better source than ESPN for individual stats. Fastest way I pull up stats are to type the player's name and the word 'stats' in google and typically the first link is baseballreference.com.

BrooksBaseball.net: PITCHf/x Tool

Thank you for the reference. I just don't get into the stats enough to know better options. I understand the value of the advanced sabermetrics but just don't personally get into all that as far as knowing exactly what is what. Just know enough to get by in converstaion within its context.

 

[WastinSomeTime]

He was pitching in the 7th the other night.

I know, I believe it was 6 1/3 innings. A stinking miracle. BP is where he belongs.

 

[Windingmywatch]

He has thrown 80.1 this year. 3.47 era 1.31 whip (career high) and 5-4 record. Constantly taxing the BP. I'm not saying this year with all the injuries there is a more viable option, but with these numbers and now maybe looking at 3rd DL stent cause he can't keep his arm from flaring up, as opposed to going 70 in a BP role if there had been no Harrison injury? Just my personal opinion that's the better spot in a perfect world and not the one with all these friggin injuries.

Ogando had a rotation spot out of camp ... same as Harrison. When Harrison went out he was replaced by Grimm. Ogando was never in the bullpen this year.

So back in the spring with Tepesch and Grimm already in the rotation ... in lieu of Ogando ... who would you have started?

 

[WastinSomeTime]

Sure did not see what Soriano is doing for NY right now coming.

 

[RevSader]

I know, I believe it was 6 1/3 innings. A stinking miracle. BP is where he belongs.

Obviously the FO doesn't agree with you. What do you honestly expect from a 5th starter, if he stays healthy? There is nothing that has shown the injuries happened because of starting exclusively, so I just don't understand this mindset.

 

[kdm1218]

Totally irrelevant since Colby is shut down for the year. If you are penciling up a rotation card for 2014 ... might just want to wait until pitchers and catchers report in mid Feb. Anything before then is speculative as relates to either pitcher.

Of course Colby is irrelevant this year. Assuming a healthy Ogando all of 2013 is also irrelevant since that's been far from true. Just a hypothetical. For the record, I don't think Colby pitches in the rotation for 2014 either. My personal ideal rotation (from guys currently on the team, discounting who we could lose or gain in FA) is Darvish, Holland, Garza, Harrison, Perez. Ogando and Feliz go back to BP, with Scheppers, Ross, Soria, and 2 of 3 out of Frasor, Cotts, Nathan. Joe's hefty option may leave him odd man out... But then again FA showed it doesn't mind paying big for an aging vet they think can get it done with Berkman, and Nathan at this point is much more productive and dependable for what he is expected to provide than Berkman was/is.