ESPN's Mike Sando's starting QB ranking

[cdumler7]

Again it is a little thing that during the pre-draft process could have been a knock on him. Yes I did hear it some before the draft.


Anyway he has turned into a great quarterback that should be great for years to come for Seattle. Feel blessed you only had to use a 3rd round pick on a starting quarterback. Throw in after 2 years already being considered one of the top-10 quarterbacks in the league is pretty darn impressive. Again I don't think this article is a knock on Wilson but it does show that experience and consistency over years and years in the league really does mean a lot to especially evaluators. I do think some of them are waiting to see what happens to Wilson when he is asked to carry the team more than he is right now. I know you guys hate the dreaded "Game Manager" title but it doesn't have to be a negative. Can Wilson do more than he is right now? Probably. At this point though he is playing the type of football that best benefits the team where he isn't asked to sling it around the field 60-70% of the time like some quarterbacks are. I think he would do fine if he was. Again I think some are waiting to see if and when Wilson is asked to be the face of the offense as at this point I think most would agree Lynch is the face of that offense.

 

[SonnyCID]

As a GM I am looking at when he was presented with a choice between the two of baseball and football he chose baseball. As a GM I would be thinking that shows that football really isn't his first love when it comes to sports. This is the Michael Jordan situation all over again where he loved baseball (partly because of his dad and the same for Russell Wilson) and one day just decided to hang it up to go pursue that dream again even if he is better at the other sport.

In 2011, it would make sense to question his love and commitment for football. By 2012, he had answered that.

Again these players are being ripped apart during the drafting process so every little thing is scrutinized.

He had marks against him for. But outside of his height, his potential prospects were as good as any QB not named Luck.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

I've got no problem with RW being ranked 8th. He's only played two years, so 8th is pretty damn good. I'm really looking forward to seeing how he does next year.

 

[cdumler7]

In 2011, it would make sense to question his love and commitment for football. By 2012, he had answered that.



He had marks against him for. But outside of his height, his potential prospects were as good as any QB not named Luck.

Again every little thing is scrutinized. I'm guessing some GM's are like you in it was not a deal at all. Some might have found it to be a small deal that maybe dropped him down a spot or two on their draft board. Not a big deal. Don't make a mountain out of this situation.

Here is one report as yes he had quit baseball but was still under contract. It is why the Rangers had to buy the rights to Wilson this season to even draft him. Yes it was a marketing ploy but again when he is still under contract with a baseball team when he is being looked at to be drafted for the NFL for some that can raise a small red flag.

Positives:
Graceful athlete — looks athletic in everything he does on the field. Poised. Has a quick, high release and very good arm strength. Nice touch. Throws naturally on the move or off balance and can alter his arm slot. Breaks down defenses with his legs — evades pressure with ease and is creative when the pocket breaks. Productive, elusive scrambler. Excellent third-down efficiency. Outstanding intangibles — mature, grounded, motivated athlete with a professional makeup and work ethic. Quickly assimilated and earned the respect of his new teammates.
Negatives:
Is short and height limits his field vision at times. Limited drop-back production. Inconsistent ball placement. Will vacate the pocket prematurely. Locks on to receivers. Has made some questionable decisions late in games (see East Carolina and Virginia Tech 2010, Michigan State 2011). Is under contract with the Colorado Rockies, and his commitment to football needs to be evaluated.

This also shows it wasn't just his height that was a question. The same things said here are what the evaluators for this article said about him in the pros in his height does present a problem when he is asked to stay in the pocket. Tape does show that he struggles some in that situation. Not enough to be a bad quarterback as he can still have success from the pocket but enough that if defenses can better game plan against that (as better defenses did and he did struggle) then they can limit him somewhat. Every player has some weaknesses to their game. For Manning and Brady if you can get pressure especially up the middle with only having to rush 4 guys then most likely they will struggle in a game. It is why so many teams try. Now for Wilson he has great legs to get himself out of the pocket and with the threat of a big time running game up the middle with Lynch it makes it easier where defenses have to crash down a lot more than against weaker RB's.

 

[Smart]

It wasn't about playing baseball; it was that football was a very visible second choice.

But it wasn't. At all. He was already drafted in baseball and was in an organization that believed in him. He already had his college degree. If he baseball were his #1, why would he relocate to play in Madison? The answer is obvious...baseball wasn't his #1.

There were two reasons why he played pro baseball. The first was that a team drafted him and he felt loyalty to them. He had entered the draft because his late father's dream to see him drafted. And as people familiar with Russell probably know, his drafting took place on the day his father died.

The second is that he wasn't invited to the NFL combine after going to NC State. They basically told him that no 5'10.5 quarterback was getting drafted. To give up on baseball in that environment when he was an early round pick in baseball in an organization that loved him would be stupid. If anything, it shows his tremendous commitment to football that he went to Wisconsin. He knew that his height meant that he'd need a superhuman effort to be successful as a quarterback, but he still took the time to try to put in superhuman effort.

And he did! He had one of the greatest college football seasons ever. After all that, he still went in the third round. No wonder he played baseball. He could be perfect with no discernible flaws other than his height (no seriously, here is his NFL Draft profile...they literally can't come up with any flaws besides concerns about his height in an NFL pocket, but they still graded him 15 points below Brandon Weeden) and go behind a punter. For a 5'10.5 QB to return just for the chance to be drafted in such an atmosphere shows tremendous dedication when he had a great fallback plan.

 

[TDs3nOut]

I've got no problem with RW being ranked 8th. He's only played two years, so 8th is pretty damn good. I'm really looking forward to seeing how he does next year.

That is a reasonable view. Far more reasonable than claiming that he, the 75th player drafted two years ago, was the most NFL ready prospect of all time!

 

[Smart]

Seems that you are either an unusually astute judge of NFL draft prospects, since there were 74 players chosen ahead of Wilson in '12, or you are biased toward former Badgers. Seems to me that the success Wilson has had has been pretty surprising to most (non-Badgers) fans.

No. It was obvious to just about everyone. Again, the fact that nobody can name an actual weakness to his game tells you most people couldn't find real flaws. It's just that football was married to the measurables, and it was impossible for a 5'10.5 QB to succeed in 2014.

GMs get enamored with trends. The same thing happened when Sam Bowie was taken over Michael Jordan despite Jordan outplaying the NBA All-Stars in three exhibitions as he prepared for the Olympics. Everyone knew Jordan was good, but it was a fact that you needed a dominant center to win. Every GM believed it. Even the Bulls said they would have taken Bowie. It wasn't because traits or play suggested Bowie was better. It was because Jordan couldn't play center (or in the alternative, power forward), so in their petty GM-think he couldn't lead a team to a title.

The same thing happened with Russell. Anybody who turns on Russell's tape would see brilliance. But they knew that he was under six feet, so he couldn't win. It didn't matter what they saw. Everyone saw Russell was great.

Now as for him being a college prospect yes he had mostly all that you were looking for (don't agree with Smart on Wilson's deep ball in college as it was a bit inconsistent but some of that could be especially in his year at Wisconsin just not having much time with the receivers to build timing). His height was a concern and yes I like some of these GM's do question as teams learn more and more of how to contain him in the pocket if that will cause issues for him as he like I said has struggled some with that but I expect him year in and year out to be a top-10 guy in the league. I don't expect Wilson to win any MVP's as that is not his style of game or that of the Seahawks but I do expect the Seahawks to be in it most years of Wilson's career for at least making the playoffs.

If Wilson was so bad on the deep ball, then post a video of a deep ball he missed. I don't remember any of them, and I have a pretty great memory. I mean, the guy averaged 10.3 YPA. The idea he had accuracy problems with his deep ball is insane. Here's a highlight video for you if you don't think he threw many great deep balls. Also, notice how much he is in the pocket.

Negatives:
Is short and height limits his field vision at times. Limited drop-back production. Inconsistent ball placement. Will vacate the pocket prematurely. Locks on to receivers. Has made some questionable decisions late in games (see East Carolina and Virginia Tech 2010, Michigan State 2011). Is under contract with the Colorado Rockies, and his commitment to football needs to be evaluated.

This also shows it wasn't just his height that was a question. The same things said here are what the evaluators for this article said about him in the pros in his height does present a problem when he is asked to stay in the pocket. Tape does show that he struggles some in that situation. Not enough to be a bad quarterback as he can still have success from the pocket but enough that if defenses can better game plan against that (as better defenses did and he did struggle) then they can limit him somewhat. Now for Wilson he has great legs to get himself out of the pocket and with the threat of a big time running game up the middle with Lynch it makes it easier where defenses have to crash down a lot more than against weaker RB's.

It's so laughable. What were those "late game mistakes" against MSU? The fact that when his team was down by 14 late, he led two quick TD drives? The fact that a receiver dropped a perfect TD pass with 10 minutes left? Oh, I got it....he scored too quickly. That was his mistake. He did throw a pick. It was also a perfect throw that his TE misplayed in the air (and was picked off by safety).

And you can look at the highlight video. He spent a ton of time in the pocket. These complaints are pretty much null.

 

[Smart]

Below is a link to the Michigan State game. There's a clear replay of the pick at 2:05:38. Notice how Pedersen quits running simply misplays the football. If that's the biggest mistake you can find (sandwiched between two TD drives), you really got nothing.

 

[BigKen]

I like the idea of ranking Brady, Manning, Brees and Rodgers all #1. Looking at them from a historical perspective, trying to call one better than the other is a dogfight. Because Manning and Brady have been at the top of their games for more than 10 years, I might have called them #1 and Rogers and Brees #3. It's always interesting to see what happens each year and if these guys can stay on top.

As far as Newton and Wilson are concerned, I want to see them throw for more than 4000 yards and 30 TDs for the next 8 years before I include them in the same breath as Brady and Manning...

 

[SonnyCID]

I like the idea of ranking Brady, Manning, Brees and Rodgers all #1. Looking at them from a historical perspective, trying to call one better than the other is a dogfight. Because Manning and Brady have been at the top of their games for more than 10 years, I might have called them #1 and Rogers and Brees #3. It's always interesting to see what happens each year and if these guys can stay on top.

As far as Newton and Wilson are concerned, I want to see them throw for more than 4000 yards and 30 TDs for the next 8 years before I include them in the same breath as Brady and Manning...

Brady was a great QB far before he threw for 4k.

 

[cdumler7]

No. It was obvious to just about everyone. Again, the fact that nobody can name an actual weakness to his game tells you most people couldn't find real flaws. It's just that football was married to the measurables, and it was impossible for a 5'10.5 QB to succeed in 2014.

GMs get enamored with trends. The same thing happened when Sam Bowie was taken over Michael Jordan despite Jordan outplaying the NBA All-Stars in three exhibitions as he prepared for the Olympics. Everyone knew Jordan was good, but it was a fact that you needed a dominant center to win. Every GM believed it. Even the Bulls said they would have taken Bowie. It wasn't because traits or play suggested Bowie was better. It was because Jordan couldn't play center (or in the alternative, power forward), so in their petty GM-think he couldn't lead a team to a title.

The same thing happened with Russell. Anybody who turns on Russell's tape would see brilliance. But they knew that he was under six feet, so he couldn't win. It didn't matter what they saw. Everyone saw Russell was great.



If Wilson was so bad on the deep ball, then post a video of a deep ball he missed. I don't remember any of them, and I have a pretty great memory. I mean, the guy averaged 10.3 YPA. The idea he had accuracy problems with his deep ball is insane. Here's a highlight video for you if you don't think he threw many great deep balls. Also, notice how much he is in the pocket.




It's so laughable. What were those "late game mistakes" against MSU? The fact that when his team was down by 14 late, he led two quick TD drives? The fact that a receiver dropped a perfect TD pass with 10 minutes left? Oh, I got it....he scored too quickly. That was his mistake. He did throw a pick. It was also a perfect throw that his TE misplayed in the air (and was picked off by safety).

And you can look at the highlight video. He spent a ton of time in the pocket. These complaints are pretty much null.

I guess do you really want to play this game? I never said he was horrible on deep throws. I said that I agreed that he was sometimes a bit inconsistent as he has a tendency to float the ball a little bit leading to some high passes. Most shorter quarterbacks have this issue as they try to throw it a bit higher to help compensate for the height difference which on occasion leads to a floating ball.

Also a highlight video is a ridiculous source of evidence. You are looking at what maybe 40-50 throws in a video like that of his over 500 at Wisconsin. More than one report noticed that Wilson wanted to leave the pocket quickly. Most college quarterbacks do anyway especially ones that can run like Wilson.

So now I will break down just one game for you here on Wilson and throws that were a bit inconsistent. This is just his Michigan State game in the Championship game (his better of the two)...

12 minute mark of the game around the 30 yard line Wilson runs a play action pass and throws a 15 yard pass to I think Toon. Pass is catchable but on a slant play like that the last thing you want to do to your receiver is throw it high as that is a quick way to get them hurt. Toon has to leap in the air to make a great catch. Catchable ball but horrible placement in that kind of situation. Again height making it hard to do the quick pass like he needs to in that situation but if he were a bit taller he probably could have placed the ball in a lot safer place for his receiver.

5:40 in the 1st quarter it is not a deep pass but once again throws high on a comeback route pretty much out of the receivers ability to catch it.

8:37 in the 2nd quarter again on a comeback route not sure what happened but looked like most likely a miscommunication more than anything but threw the ball high and outside out of reach of the receiver. Not really sure who was at fault on this one as my guess is it was more a misroute than an actual bad pass.

3:20 in the 2nd quarter looks like he is probably just throwing the ball away as he is running out of the pocket and receiver is pretty well covered. Could have fit it in but it would have been a tight window.

2:39 in the 2nd quarter over throws a sideline throw. Not a deep pass but a 10 yard side line throw that sailed on the running back.

Around 3:30 in the 3rd quarter WR had a step on a deep throw and Wilson just overthrew him by a yard or two otherwise good chance it is a touchdown or at the very least a big play.

Height was a factor on the 2 point conversion they tried at 3:25 where it got tipped when he tried to throw an inside route.

Now this was a good game for him and he was clutch for most of the game but like I said on some of his throws he does have a tendency to float them over the receiver or when he really tries to zip them they go high. Not every time as he is a very accurate quarterback but it does show up some. Also on about half the passing plays he did a ton of running around and I would say 35% of his passing plays he was running completely out of the pocket. This is what the scouts saw. Doesn't make him a bad quarterback just shows he does have some weaknesses.

Heck when Manning came out he was scrutinized up and down and there were some who didn't think he was the best quarterback in the draft. It happens where people can only see the weaknesses in a player and begin missing out on the best that a player can offer.

I can break down more games if you want as it doesn't take too long with the greatness of technology these days but I am pretty sure there will be some great throws like there were in this game mixed in with a few bad ones. Every quarterback has them. My guess is scouts watched some of this especially that first throw to Toon with the slant route where you have to laser it in to the window and saw that the ball had to go high to get over the Offensive and Defensive Line players. In the NFL I am sure they worried that kind of throw would get a WR or TE killed. I would. Doesn't again make him a bad quarterback just makes you worried as a coach, scout, GM or whatever in will that hurt a team's ability to succeed if he is limited on where on the field he can throw to. Now I know there are plenty of plays where he did fine throwing to the middle but again in this one I saw one go high and 2 batted balls at the line just from this game alone.

AGAIN EVERY PLAYER HAS SOME WEAKNESSES TO THEIR GAME! I'm not trying to bash Wilson. I think he is a heck of a player and a heck of a nice guy and is going to be in this league for a long time and be very successful. I'm not ready to crown him one of the elite quarterbacks in the league but if he continues down the path he is going then I don't see why he can't reach that level.

 

[cdumler7]

Also your pick play that you keep hinting towards as not being Wilson's fault. Yes the receiver could have timed the route a bit better as yes he stopped a bit to try and time his jump but even if he was in the right spot the receiver was going to take a huge hit and I just don't see any way that the receiver catches the ball. Best case scenario is receiver keeps the Corner from intercepting the ball and somehow avoids getting hurt. Safety was in great position no matter what the receiver did to make a play on the ball and at worst lay a major hit on the WR. It wasn't a bad throw by Wilson by any means just not a very smart one.

 

[Destroydacre]

Rodgers, Peyton, Brady, Brees, Luck. One of these is not like the others. Seriously.

 

[TDs3nOut]

No. It was obvious to just about everyone.

You really want to stand behind your "it was obvious to just about everyone claim" when 74 players were drafted ahead of Wilson? Doesn't seem the least bit honest to me.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Lol @ Eli Manning being in the top 10. Manning threw 27 INTs with a pedestrian 57% completion percentage in 2013 despite having Victor Cruz and Hakeem Nicks to throw to. Before 2013 that ranking is completely justified, but in 2013 Eli Manning did more harm than good to the Giants. It's hard to win when your QB gives the ball back to the defense as much as Eli Manning did in 2013.

 

[seahawksfan234]

I don't think Seahawk fans have anything to be upset about with Wilson ranked where he is. Wilson is a good QB on a well constructed roster. Without him, we wouldn't have made it to the Superbowl, but I don't think our odds would have been worse if we had any of the players ranked higher than him.

Plus, I mean who cares what other people think? The Seahawks won the most important game in the NFL with Wilson as the starting QB.

 

[NCChiFan]

Luck is too high at the moment, he may indeed be there soon enough, but not now. Stafford is to high as well.

 

[UK Cowboy]

Uh oh prepare for the onslaught of Seahawks fans being ticked that anybody would rate Russell Wilson out of the top-5 quarterbacks. This is the 2nd article done by experts (one by ESPN and one by NFL.com) that have rated him right around 10th-12th in the league. My guess is those who watch every game and are paid to do so have a pretty good idea where a player is ranked. I understand they all are not the greatest of experts but when you have a wide range of coaches, scouts, GM's, analyst, ex-players, and so on they can come up with a pretty good list.


Looking at it I for the most part would agree. Matt Ryan being so high is not quite where I would put him but at the same time I don't think he has had much talent other than at WR around him. Yet he has a pretty darn good winning record in his career so I think if you give him some more talent on both sides of the ball he really could make some noise. Also disagree some with Cam Newton being so low. He really showed me something this last year as a leader. I think his numbers will be down this year some but that is mostly because he just has no talent around him on offense. I also think RGIII will shoot up this list for next year. The article says he was downgraded because of injury so again when healthy he is definitely top-10 in the league.


Also a big fan of them rating Tom Brady where they did. I know after this last season everybody has been screaming that he is slipping but the guy is a winner. Even on a down year they still found a way to dominate and a big part of that is Tom Brady just willing his team to victory. This year with more time with his WR's and maybe a healthy Gronk they will be a top-5 offense easy in this league.

The only reason this gets plus one, is because I couldn't hit plus 10. All the Seahawks fans squealing like baby bird, ''Russell Smurf is number 1''

 

[cdumler7]

Lol @ Eli Manning being in the top 10. Manning threw 27 INTs with a pedestrian 57% completion percentage in 2013 despite having Victor Cruz and Hakeem Nicks to throw to. Before 2013 that ranking is completely justified, but in 2013 Eli Manning did more harm than good to the Giants. It's hard to win when your QB gives the ball back to the defense as much as Eli Manning did in 2013.

This ranking is based on career not just one season. Eli Manning before a year where most of his OL went down with injury and his receivers just really didn't produce like they have (I'm sorry but calling Nicks a good receiver last year is a bit ridiculous) he was on almost every top-10 list. So my guess is all these people making up this list viewed last year as more of an anomaly than the norm for Eli. I mean look at Philip Rivers this past season. Most after the couple of years before that thought he was showing he was going downhill quickly. Got himself a few new players around him and especially a new coach that used his skill set a lot better and he is right back finishing top-5 in almost every category possible for a quarterback. So again just can't judge a player off one bad season.

 

[cdumler7]

The only reason this gets plus one, is because I couldn't hit plus 10. All the Seahawks fans squealing like baby bird, ''Russell Smurf is number 1''

Haha thanks. Just know I saw on another thread on their board they were talking about another analyst for the NFL Network rated Tony Romo and others pretty much the same level where ESPN and all they had contribute to this list and they were going a bit crazy with it. Again I just don't see why rating him 8th overall and tied with some pretty darn good quarterbacks should be considered such an insult. I know we can argue left and right of what quarterback belongs where I guess but at the end of the day being a top-10 person in the world at something is pretty darn impressive in my book. Only 10 people can say they are in that unique group.