Toni Kukoc on the LeBron/Curry Debate

[WiggyRuss]

Hate to break it to ya, but what he did in the playoffs last season-Finals included-would qualify as running himself into the ground. The stats posted on this thread earlier prove it. It's akin to what he was doing in Miami the last two seasons when Wade wasn't playing as much anymore.
When you couple that with the fact that there's now a brick wall in GS that he's run in to last season-and probably will for the next few seasons at the very least-it means he's running out of time.

The difference tween he & Kobe at this point is that Kobe already had a 3peat & had already begun to work on & implementing his post game.

see this is where my head just hurts reading your posts.

In the Finals is where you WANT your guys to lay it on the line and give every single thing they have. You dont "save something" in the Finals. You dont conserve energy in the Finals.

Once you get into your thirties- you need to start thinking about this for all time greats that you want to have extended careers.

Where you conserve energy and elongate a guys career is in the regular season- by doing 2 things:

1. Limiting minutes
2. Sitting out games

Kobe basically never skipped games, and played extremely high minute totals.

Age/games/minutse:

Kobe:
30- 82/82 - 36.1 mpg
31- 73/82 - 38.8 mpg
32- 82/82 - 33.9 mpg
33- 58/66 - 38.5 mpg
34- 78/82 - 38.6 mpg

LeBron:
30- 69/82 - 36.1 mpg
31- 43/44- 35.7 mpg (thus far)
32- ? (obviously)

Duncan:
30- 80/80 - 34.1
31- 78/82 - 34.0
32- 75/82 - 33.6
33- 78/82 - 31.3
34- 76/82 - 28.4

Kobe playing almost 39 minutes a game in his age 33, 34 seasons- while admirable- and it shows how tough this guy was- also had to have a huge impact on all the injuries that just piled on once he hit 35. Now I highly doubt Lebron is gonna want to play in the low thirties or high twenties like Duncan in those same years- but lets hope he is not doing what Kobe did.

 

[LAD]

see this is where my head just hurts reading your posts.

In the Finals is where you WANT your guys to lay it on the line and give every single thing they have. You dont "save something" in the Finals. You dont conserve energy in the Finals.

Once you get into your thirties- you need to start thinking about this for all time greats that you want to have extended careers.

Where you conserve energy and elongate a guys career is in the regular season- by doing 2 things:

1. Limiting minutes
2. Sitting out games

Kobe basically never skipped games, and played extremely high minute totals.

Age/games/minutse:

Kobe:
30- 82/82 - 36.1 mpg
31- 73/82 - 38.8 mpg
32- 82/82 - 33.9 mpg
33- 58/66 - 38.5 mpg
34- 78/82 - 38.6 mpg

LeBron:
30- 69/82 - 36.1 mpg
31- 43/44- 35.7 mpg (thus far)
32- ? (obviously)

Duncan:
30- 80/80 - 34.1
31- 78/82 - 34.0
32- 75/82 - 33.6
33- 78/82 - 31.3
34- 76/82 - 28.4

Kobe playing almost 39 minutes a game in his age 33, 34 seasons- while admirable- and it shows how tough this guy was- also had to have a huge impact on all the injuries that just piled on once he hit 35. Now I highly doubt Lebron is gonna want to play in the low thirties or high twenties like Duncan in those same years- but lets hope he is not doing what Kobe did.

It is almost impossible to have a conversation with you, honestly.

When did I say someone WOULDN'T want their star player to lay it on the line during the playoffs? My goodness. If you just took a moment to READ what you see in print right in front of you rather than assume the meaning of something not there you might be able to debate like normal people. You are soooo high strung it's ridiculous.
Anyways I'll try again.
I didn't suggest LBJ conserve energy in the playoffs. What I said was he has already started to run himself into the ground. For you to suggest that it's different because it's the playoffs rather than the reg season when it happened is crazy. No matter the reason, the fact that he's over-worked doesn't change.
And, he certainly was over-worked througout those two final regular seasons in addition to the post seasons in Miami. I also don't think you took into count his LONG seasons in Cleveland during his first stint there. Add those things up and that lands him right smack where we started-being ran into the ground. How else do you explain him having logged more minutes than Kobe at that age?

 

[SJ76]

Anyone know of a PF/SF 6'10 type guy in the NBA today that could handle the ball, was a good passer, and could score from anywhere on the court?

Toni was a pretty good player. Even when Jordan was gone, him and Pipp got the Bulls to the ECF game 7 against the Knicks. Got robbed of a BS call to give the Knicks 1 game of that series.

I also think he knows about great players cuz he played with some of the best offensive and defensive players in the game. He also played on the best team ever to play in the NBA.


He's got credentials.

As far as Steph vs. Bron? I'd take either. As far as Jimmy Butler, maybe Jimmy can show up the next time we play the best team in the league.

I think the more GS gets closer to the record, the more you will see quotes from the '96 squad.

 

[LAD]

Anyone know of a PF/SF 6'10 type guy in the NBA today that could handle the ball, was a good passer, and could score from anywhere on the court?

Toni was a pretty good player. Even when Jordan was gone, him and Pipp got the Bulls to the ECF game 7 against the Knicks. Got robbed of a BS call to give the Knicks 1 game of that series.

I also think he knows about great players cuz he played with some of the best offensive and defensive players in the game. He also played on the best team ever to play in the NBA.


He's got credentials.

As far as Steph vs. Bron? I'd take either. As far as Jimmy Butler, maybe Jimmy can show up the next time we play the best team in the league.

I think the more GS gets closer to the record, the more you will see quotes from the '96 squad.

How was his defense?

 

[SJ76]

How was his defense?

He guarded guys like him.. Detlef Shremp, etc. He wasn't a NBA 1st teamer, but he was good enough to stop the man he was guarding. Did he check the best player on the court? No he didn't have to. He was a role player and a really good one.


Like I said, anyone see a 6'10 guy that can handle the ball, pass, and score from anywhere on the court these days?

 

[CitySushi]

Chris Webber. His 3 point shooting was definitely below par, but he had enough distance on his outside shot to keep very respectable.

 

[Clayton]

As far as Steph vs. Bron? I'd take either.

Thats where I'm at in this debate. Its like comparing Magic to Bird. You know most people take Magic every time but what you really want to see is both on the same team.

I think its been Curry's league the past 2 years. Lebron is the best player of our generation in any major sport. Both of those ideas can exist. There was a small stretch in the NBA where Dirk was the best player in the NBA. I don't think anyone would take him over Lebron. Unlike Dirk and Durant and early career Lebron, Curry is getting a chance to show his elite skillset on an elite team.

 

[Clayton]

Chris Webber. His 3 point shooting was definitely below par, but he had enough distance on his outside shot to keep very respectable.

Didn't he spend half of his career being allergic to defense?

 

[CitySushi]

Didn't he spend half of his career being allergic to defense?

Oh, I didn't see a reference to defense. I just saw the part about being 6'10" with handle, passing and ability to shoot. But you're right.

 

[SJ76]

Thats where I'm at in this debate. Its like comparing Magic to Bird. You know most people take Magic every time but what you really want to see is both on the same team.

I think its been Curry's league the past 2 years. Lebron is the best player of our generation in any major sport. Both of those ideas can exist. There was a small stretch in the NBA where Dirk was the best player in the NBA. I don't think anyone would take him over Lebron. Unlike Dirk and Durant and early career Lebron, Curry is getting a chance to show his elite skillset on an elite team.

Really the big difference if you look at these 2? Both are scorers. Lebron is a better defender. But Steph is a great passer and very unselfish with the ball. Golden St's ball movement is redonkulously good. This and their defense last year is why they won.

Steph being the best player on GS and sharing the ball makes the team even better. Bron isn't that guy. If he was, the whole team would be playing unselfish and when Love, Irving, Bron are moving the ball to find the open guy.. They'd be silly good too.

Same thing with Jimmy Butler and Rose. Both want to be the scorer.

For this I give Steph big props.

 

[Clayton]

Really the big difference if you look at these 2? Both are scorers. Lebron is a better defender. But Steph is a great passer and very unselfish with the ball. Golden St's ball movement is redonkulously good. This and their defense last year is why they won.

Steph being the best player on GS and sharing the ball makes the team even better. Bron isn't that guy.

I won't knock Lebron's passing ability or basketball IQ but I do think playing in college helped Curry out a lot. He had more than his fair share of double teams on a small school team and he got really good at passing the ball.

 

[LAD]

He guarded guys like him.. Detlef Shremp, etc. He wasn't a NBA 1st teamer, but he was good enough to stop the man he was guarding. Did he check the best player on the court? No he didn't have to. He was a role player and a really good one.


Like I said, anyone see a 6'10 guy that can handle the ball, pass, and score from anywhere on the court these days?

Well I think Draymond Green is pretty darn comparable. While he is just shy of being 6'10 he definitely can handle the ball, passes on a dime and is BETTER on defense-given that his assignment often demands he guard guys such as Kukoc.

 

[LAD]

Thats where I'm at in this debate. Its like comparing Magic to Bird. You know most people take Magic every time but what you really want to see is both on the same team.

I think its been Curry's league the past 2 years. Lebron is the best player of our generation in any major sport. Both of those ideas can exist. There was a small stretch in the NBA where Dirk was the best player in the NBA. I don't think anyone would take him over Lebron. Unlike Dirk and Durant and early career Lebron, Curry is getting a chance to show his elite skillset on an elite team.

You make some good points, however, I don't think I would've ever taken Dirk over any other star. He has always been a liability on defense and I just couldn't see building a team when my franchise player sucks on one end of the court.

 

[LAD]

Didn't he spend half of his career being allergic to defense?

This is funny since you just mentioned Dirk who had the same allergy.

 

[LAD]

Really the big difference if you look at these 2? Both are scorers. Lebron is a better defender. But Steph is a great passer and very unselfish with the ball. Golden St's ball movement is redonkulously good. This and their defense last year is why they won.

Steph being the best player on GS and sharing the ball makes the team even better. Bron isn't that guy. If he was, the whole team would be playing unselfish and when Love, Irving, Bron are moving the ball to find the open guy.. They'd be silly good too.

Same thing with Jimmy Butler and Rose. Both want to be the scorer.

For this I give Steph big props.

Would you compare what Butler and Rose are experiencing to the problem GS had with Monta & Curry a few seasons back?

 

[Clayton]

You make some good points, however, I don't think I would've ever taken Dirk over any other star. He has always been a liability on defense and I just couldn't see building a team when my franchise player sucks on one end of the court.

I feel like an interior post defender isn't an exceptionally difficult thing to find. Tyson Chandler wasn't exactly a superstar.

Fact of the matter is that Dirk had 2 really good playoff runs with relatively little talent and after his title he had his team blown up. I think history is going to be really kind to Dirk.

 

[SJ76]

I won't knock Lebron's passing ability or basketball IQ but I do think playing in college helped Curry out a lot. He had more than his fair share of double teams on a small school team and he got really good at passing the ball.

His ability to pass I am knocking. I am knocking him because he doesn't share the ball like he should IMO. His ability isn't the question.. It's what he does with it.

 

[Heatles84]

He guarded guys like him.. Detlef Shremp, etc. He wasn't a NBA 1st teamer, but he was good enough to stop the man he was guarding. Did he check the best player on the court? No he didn't have to. He was a role player and a really good one.


Like I said, anyone see a 6'10 guy that can handle the ball, pass, and score from anywhere on the court these days?

Well, Lebron can do that pretty well at 6'8. Draymond Green is the next who's currently 6'7. Both can also guard positions 1-5.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Anyone know of a PF/SF 6'10 type guy in the NBA today that could handle the ball, was a good passer, and could score from anywhere on the court?

Toni was a pretty good player. Even when Jordan was gone, him and Pipp got the Bulls to the ECF game 7 against the Knicks. Got robbed of a BS call to give the Knicks 1 game of that series.

I also think he knows about great players cuz he played with some of the best offensive and defensive players in the game. He also played on the best team ever to play in the NBA.


He's got credentials.

As far as Steph vs. Bron? I'd take either. As far as Jimmy Butler, maybe Jimmy can show up the next time we play the best team in the league.

I think the more GS gets closer to the record, the more you will see quotes from the '96 squad.

Kevin Love!

 

[Montalban]

LeBron James has been the best player in the NBA for around 8 years now, and likely won’t easily relinquish that title to Warriors’ guard Stephen Curry, who’s already being deemed the new best player in the league after just a year and a half of great play.

James has led his team to five straight NBA Finals, has won six-of-seven Conference Finals appearances, and has dominated basically every aspect of the sport. Curry just came off of his first ever Conference Finals and Finals appearance which resulted in an NBA championship. Prior to that, Curry had never even been to the playoffs in his first three years or past the second round over the next three.

A three-time NBA Champion with the Chicago Bulls and a member of the historic 72-10 regular season Bulls team of 1995-96, Toni Kukoc played alongside Michael Jordan was a big part of what the Bulls accomplished and he agrees that Curry is the greatest shooter the NBA has ever seen. He’s not, however, ready to name him the best player in the NBA.

“There are people [who] think that he’s the best player in the league,” Kukoc said. “It’s hard to argue that he is the best player, but he is certainly the best scorer, the best shooter, very, very talented ball-handling guy and he uses every bit of it. It’s a pleasure to watch him. But if you put complete basketball from a defensive standpoint, a rebounding standpoint, and all that, you can’t … I don’t think you can compare [him to] LeBron or some other player. I would even put in [Bulls guard Jimmy] Butler. These two-way players, defensively and offensively are really good.”

It seems people have forgotten how great LeBron James really is amid the Cavs recent struggles and the Warriors record-breaking success. That’s fine, as the Cavs could focus more on themselves with less media attention.

Three-Time Chicago Bulls Champion Takes LeBron James Over Stephen Curry

James only was able to do that by manipulating the roster of the teams he goes to the finals with. he's a douchebag. He fires his coach in Cleveland. He's an idiot.