Toni Kukoc on the LeBron/Curry Debate

[Shanemansj13]

that is pretty crazy....only player in history to lead all players in points, assists, boards-- nba finals have been going for a while....cool stat....ive always liked Magic! he knows his shit.

Johnson said James raised his game to a new level, as he became the first to lead all players in an NBA Finals in points, assists and rebounds.

"This is as good as we've ever seen. It won't be the top because he did lose. So we're going to have to still go with (Michael) Jordan as one, but now he can probably take number two spot. It will be 1-A Jordan and 1-B LeBron," Johnson said.

Well for sure Lebron was the best player on the court in the NBA Finals, but the Warriors as a team played better than what the Cavs had as their team. Sometimes one player isn't enough. But this year I think Steph has been the best player no doubt.

 

[Shanemansj13]

The guy was a man all alone on the Island of broken toys.

Yep, pretty much. He could have averaged better stats. He was getting open looks for bench players, they just couldn't knock down shots, so then he had to takeover which incredibly almost worked for the Cavs, just not enough steam in the tank.

 

[Heatles84]

Wiggy, the thing about Duncan is, he's never been the most athletic person on the floor. He's relied more on techniques and fundamentals - hence why he's called "The Big Fundamental". This is a reason Duncan is still playing at a productive level in this league. His continued success is coupled with how the Spurs are consistently winning and able to build a winning culture.

Lebron relies more on athleticism. He fits into the same narrative as Kobe and Wade. He's smart that he's been working on his post game when he has because he's going to have to rely on it more often down the line. Once that happens, he won't be the Lebron that he used to be. It's evident that the decline is starting to hit him - have you seen his shooting percentage (more specifically his 3-pt %) compared to the last couple of years?

Also, Lebron no longer has the defensive intensity that he had (at least while in Miami).

 

[WiggyRuss]

Wiggy, the thing about Duncan is, he's never been the most athletic person on the floor. He's relied more on techniques and fundamentals - hence why he's called "The Big Fundamental". This is a reason Duncan is still playing at a productive level in this league. His continued success is coupled with how the Spurs are consistently winning and able to build a winning culture.

Lebron relies more on athleticism. He fits into the same narrative as Kobe and Wade. He's smart that he's been working on his post game when he has because he's going to have to rely on it more often down the line. Once that happens, he won't be the Lebron that he used to be. It's evident that the decline is starting to hit him - have you seen his shooting percentage (more specifically his 3-pt %) compared to the last couple of years?

Also, Lebron no longer has the defensive intensity that he had (at least while in Miami).

its a fair point for sure. And the general rule is that big men age a lot better than guards- who tend to lose it real quick----and as i said in one of the previous posts---- there is no way LeBron is going to consent to be babied like Duncan was--- but there is also no way LeBron is going to run himself into the ground like Kobe did- i mean- I would be willing to bet my left nut Kobe would not have taken those 2 weeks off last year for the variety of knick-knack injuries lebron had.....LeBron will be somewhere in the middle- both in how he is handled- and in that he is in between a guard and a big man---

as you saw in Miami- it took a lot of effort on the coaches to make lebron go in the post- or be the roll man in a pick and roll- he loves having he ball in his hands- if he is going to be effective into his mid to late thirties he is going to have to operate without the ball in the post more and let Kyrie set him up.....we shall see if he actually does so.

 

[trojanfan12]

its a fair point for sure. And the general rule is that big men age a lot better than guards- who tend to lose it real quick----and as i said in one of the previous posts---- there is no way LeBron is going to consent to be babied like Duncan was--- but there is also no way LeBron is going to run himself into the ground like Kobe did- i mean- I would be willing to bet my left nut Kobe would not have taken those 2 weeks off last year for the variety of knick-knack injuries lebron had.....LeBron will be somewhere in the middle- both in how he is handled- and in that he is in between a guard and a big man---

Pretty much agree with this. However, Lebron may already have too many miles on him and may have already run himself into the ground a bit. Everyone talks about the mileage that Kobe has on his body from playing when he would have been better served to sit and having so many deep playoff runs. Lebron is 31 and has more mileage racked up on his body than Kobe did at the same age.

That's just crazy when you consider the mileage Kobe had. Gives me a little more respect for Lebron.

 

[WiggyRuss]

Pretty much agree with this. However, Lebron may already have too many miles on him and may have already run himself into the ground a bit. Everyone talks about the mileage that Kobe has on his body from playing when he would have been better served to sit and having so many deep playoff runs. Lebron is 31 and has more mileage racked up on his body than Kobe did at the same age.

That's just crazy when you consider the mileage Kobe had. Gives me a little more respect for Lebron.

Kobe had some serious injuries and had multiple surgeries that without a doubt added to his early decline- something that- knock on wood- lebron has been able to avoid on pretty much a historic level. again KNOCK ON WOOD- but LeBron's health has been nothing short of extraordinary and freakish thus far- which makes me belive-that in addition to being an outlier every where else- he most likely will be health wise and longevity wise as well. It sure seems like the normal rules just dont apply to the LeBrons or Jim Browns or Wilt Chamberlains or Lawrence Taylors.

 

[lakersrule]

Kobe had some serious injuries and had multiple surgeries that without a doubt added to his early decline.

When exactly was his early decline? In his 17th season he averaged 27.3 PPG, 6.0 APG, and 5.6 RPG.

 

[WiggyRuss]

When exactly was his early decline? In his 17th season he averaged 27.3 PPG, 6.0 APG, and 5.6 RPG.

that was his age 34 season and thats obviously afterwards where it went from Kobe being elite- to Kobe being pretty much a shell of himself because of the injuries. and like i said- guards age more quickly and kobe had bad knee issues, and shoulder issues a lot of his career.

Its why I hope Kobe gives hope to LeBron- Kobe was (1) a guard (2) had some significant prior injuries (3) never sat out - ever basically unless he HAD too- and yet was still ELITe through his age 34 season. While it would have been nice for Kobe to be at least VERY good into his late 30's like Duncan- its hardly bad for him to stay elite through age 34- however- Jordan i think stayed elite longer than that (all though- less miles).

Hopefully LeBron can stay elite through age 36 or so- i think thats perfetly reasonable to expect- and then stay very good- into his late 30's like Duncan- but we shall see.

 

[lakersrule]

that was his age 34 season and thats obviously afterwards where it went from Kobe being elite- to Kobe being pretty much a shell of himself because of the injuries. and like i said- guards age more quickly and kobe had bad knee issues, and shoulder issues a lot of his career.

But he never had an early decline which is what you are saying. You can't look at his age without looking at the number of seasons played. He was playing elite level basketball during his 17th season in the league until he tore his achilles. He has been a shell of himself since, but 17 seasons of elite basketball doesn't support your notion of an early decline due to playing through injuries.

 

[WiggyRuss]

But he never had an early decline which is what you are saying. You can't look at his age without looking at the number of seasons played. He was playing elite level basketball during his 17th season in the league until he tore his achilles. He has been a shell of himself since, but 17 seasons of elite basketball doesn't support your notion of an early decline due to playing through injuries.

well - compared to all time great contemporaries like Jordan and Duncan he kinda did---- and i guess i should not say "early" as much as "precipitous". I certainly did not expect Kobe to go from what he did the year you are talking about- to never again having a significant moment.

 

[lakersrule]

well - compared to all time great contemporaries like Jordan and Duncan he kinda did---- and i guess i should not say "early" as much as "precipitous". I certainly did not expect Kobe to go from what he did the year you are talking about- to never again having a significant moment.

Agreed about Duncan, but we all agree that bigs age better compared to high flying guards. A lot of people thought Kobe would never be close to the same after the achilles injury. I thought he could get back to a decent level of play but was wrong.

I don't think Jordan is a good comparison. He only played 15 seasons and had a couple of retirements thus less wear and tear on his body.

 

[LAD]

You're a moron if you're going off of what Magic says. Magic, as great of a basketball player that he was, is the near opposite of an analyst. He goes with the popular opinion and that's it. An analyst that I highly respect is Tim Legler. Guys like him had to rely more on technique and IQ to stay in the league as long as he had. Magic relied more on pure athleticism and talent.

You know who else I like as an analyst is Kenny Smith. He can break down the game of basketball so easily and in a way that even the most casual fan can understand. I love it. Wish there were more analyst like him.

 

[LAD]

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[LAD]

i seriously have no clue why this perception is growing that LeBron needs to get it done soon. Duncan is near 40. MJ won what? AT LEAST 3- if not 4 rings after a season started with him being 30 years old. LeBron's help is only getting better as well as they develop....I think LeBron and the Cavs window is at LEAST a full 5 years from LEbron going from 30 (at the beginning of this sseason) to at least 35- while KYrie goes from 23 to 28 and Love goes from 27 to 32--- i mean- those se are the YEARS guys win championships 90% of the time. Its an incredible outlier to have a young team like GSW win the titl and we have discussed AD NASUEUM the way every single thing that could have broken GSW's way- DID break GSW's way. Like i said with Dirk- who could have ever guessed that the MAVERICKS would win that year- a year that totally unexpectedly was a year where a "great team" just did not exist.--- the Celtics, Lakers, Spurs etc....all veteran teams with guys in that age range between 27-33 where guys are sstill near their athletic peak but are at their toughest and most mentally strong.

They only problem with this thought is that GS IS younger and their core is pretty much locked up for that same 5 year period.
I mean they only way LBJ has time on his side is if he pulls a Tanya Harding and somehow clocks father time in the knees.

 

[Heatles84]

You know who else I like as an analyst is Kenny Smith. He can break down the game of basketball so easily and in a way that even the most casual fan can understand. I love it. Wish there were more analyst like him.

Love me some Kenny, he's a great analyst. Comparing him and Chuck is night and day. Only reason why Barkley is there is for humor.

 

[LAD]

We'll if you take every posession it's kinda of hard not to put up pretty good numbers. He did it while shooting a little bit over 30%.. Shooting 30% doesn't equal one of the greatest ever IMOIMO

Interesting point....

 

[LAD]

Carrying a bunch of nobodies to win 2 games vs a great team is what I'm talking about. If Iguodala is not there Ws still win. If Lebron is not there Warriors win in 3 because Cleveland just forfeits game 4.

Well if LBJ weren't there they don't make the playoffs, as proven in past seasons. But, he isn't the first great player to be able to do that.

But I do agree, his performance was phenominal in the Finals. And it was just further prooft that one or two great players can't beat a TEAM of five. Also, when he only won two of six games I don't think it's fair to the other team to say that he came close to winning-especially when the last three of those six games were consecutive losses.

 

[LAD]

its a fair point for sure. And the general rule is that big men age a lot better than guards- who tend to lose it real quick----and as i said in one of the previous posts---- there is no way LeBron is going to consent to be babied like Duncan was--- but there is also no way LeBron is going to run himself into the ground like Kobe did- i mean- I would be willing to bet my left nut Kobe would not have taken those 2 weeks off last year for the variety of knick-knack injuries lebron had.....LeBron will be somewhere in the middle- both in how he is handled- and in that he is in between a guard and a big man---

as you saw in Miami- it took a lot of effort on the coaches to make lebron go in the post- or be the roll man in a pick and roll- he loves having he ball in his hands- if he is going to be effective into his mid to late thirties he is going to have to operate without the ball in the post more and let Kyrie set him up.....we shall see if he actually does so.

Hate to break it to ya, but what he did in the playoffs last season-Finals included-would qualify as running himself into the ground. The stats posted on this thread earlier prove it. It's akin to what he was doing in Miami the last two seasons when Wade wasn't playing as much anymore.
When you couple that with the fact that there's now a brick wall in GS that he's run in to last season-and probably will for the next few seasons at the very least-it means he's running out of time.

The difference tween he & Kobe at this point is that Kobe already had a 3peat & had already begun to work on & implementing his post game.

 

[LAD]

Pretty much agree with this. However, Lebron may already have too many miles on him and may have already run himself into the ground a bit. Everyone talks about the mileage that Kobe has on his body from playing when he would have been better served to sit and having so many deep playoff runs. Lebron is 31 and has more mileage racked up on his body than Kobe did at the same age.

That's just crazy when you consider the mileage Kobe had. Gives me a little more respect for Lebron.

I agree, but at the end of the day Kobe has 5 rings to show for it. The question remains how many will LBJ have when it's said and done?

 

[LAD]

Agreed about Duncan, but we all agree that bigs age better compared to high flying guards. A lot of people thought Kobe would never be close to the same after the achilles injury. I thought he could get back to a decent level of play but was wrong.

I don't think Jordan is a good comparison. He only played 15 seasons and had a couple of retirements thus less wear and tear on his body.

It will be interesting to revisit this convesation when father time has caught up with & clamped down on LBJ and compare him to Curry then. Somehow though, I doubt that LBJ has 20 seasons in the league if he continues on the path he's on now. But, you can't tell LeBronogists that because to them he's never gonna age.