POLL Top 10 poll #15: #15 player in history - Runoff

[msgkings322]

pedro matches up well vs Koufax.... short prime... but special prime...

Pedro had a longer prime. Koufax was elite for literally only 5 seasons.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Pedro had a longer prime. Koufax was elite for literally only 5 seasons.

yea... i know... just grouping them together because they are both very short primes... one being longer doesnt really make that untrue...

I guess Pedro has 7 seasons in his prime and had decent seasons outside his prime... which is different than Koufax, who only had his 5 season prime....

 

[eaglesnut]

Roger Clemens 1984 - 2007

7 CY, 1 MVP, 3 top 5 CY, 1 top 5 MVP, 3 top 10 CY, 4 top 10 MVP, 4 more season with MVP votes, 11 ASG

Bold: IP 2, ERA 7, K 5, WHIP 3, K/BB 4

354-184 W-L
4672/1580 K/BB
707/118 GS/CG
4916.2 IP

Randy Johnson 1989 - 2009

5 CY, 4 top 5 CY, 1 top 10 CY, 2 top 10 MVP, 7 more season with MVP votes, 10 ASG

Bold: IP 2, ERA 4, K 9, WHIP 3, K/BB 1

303-166 W-L
4875/1497 K/BB
603/100 GS/CG
4135.1 IP

Pedro Martinez 1992 - 2009

3 CY, 4 top 5 CY, 2 top 5 MVP, 4 more seasons with MVP votes, 8 ASG

Bold: K 3, ERA 5, WHIP 6, K/BB 4

219-100 W-L
3154/760 K/BB
409/46 GS/CG
2827.1 IP

Greg Maddux 1988 - 2008

4 CY, 5 top 5 CY, 2 top 5 MVP, 4 more seasons with MVP votes, 8 ASG, 18 GG

Bold: ERA 4, IP 5, CG 3, WHIP 4, K/BB 3

355-227 W-L
3371/999 K/BB
740/109 GS/CG
5008.1 IP

Come on people. 7 CY

Seven

7

 

[Clayton]

i think i did make that argument.... i was fighting for him to be the first pitcher... i was ok with Johnson winning... but that is more because it is impossible to compare pitching... due to crazy innings pitched...

whats crazy is not even WJ is unanimous at #1 if you go to different sites... ive seen a few with Mathewson as the #1 pitcher....

Yeah, I meant #6 overall not #6 pitcher. Imo he is clearly the 2nd best player of the **** era

 

[calsnowskier]

Whats crazy is that I think you could probably make an argument for Clemens as high as 6th or so. Ill admit I wasnt that high on him but we're reaching the point of absurdity in terms of him just never having the votes

I think #6 is a bit aggressive, but I get your general gist. And while I believe RC is the #1 pitcher, I don’t think he is so far ahead of the others that it is worth getting pissed at Walter, Pedro, Maddux, Randy, Mathewson or Young (maybe a few others) taking that slot instead. I am 100% AOK with that honor going to Walter.

But it is getting pretty ridiculous at this point with no other pitcher getting placed. I fear that “feels” are the reason for that (one voter at least owns his stance here. As much as I VEHEMENTLY disagree with that stance, I respect him for standing up and owning it).

 

[calsnowskier]

A bit surprised Maddux threw more innings than Clemens

He wasn’t a fire baller. He was probably the best pitch-to-contact pitcher of the last 75 years. That REALLY reduces the stress on your arm.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Yeah, I meant #6 overall not #6 pitcher. Imo he is clearly the 2nd best player of the **** era

but crazy that both argument can be made...LOL...

 

[nynasty]

He wasn’t a fire baller. He was probably the best pitch-to-contact pitcher of the last 75 years. That REALLY reduces the stress on your arm.

He threw an 80 something pitch complete game at one point

 

[calsnowskier]

Come on people. 7 CY

Seven

7

I agree with this, but DHoey made the argument that at least one of those could have arguably gone to Randy, which would have tied them both at 6.

Accolades are all very debatable. Getting too entrenched in using them as ammunition can get dicey.

 

[Clayton]

I think #6 is a bit aggressive, but I get your general gist. And while I believe RC is the #1 pitcher, I don’t think he is so far ahead of the others that it is worth getting pissed at Walter, Pedro, Maddux, Randy, Mathewson or Young (maybe a few others) taking that slot instead.

I think Id be upset if Pedro and Young were higher than him. They are on opposite sides of the prime+volume conversation but I dont think either really makes sense super high.

 

[msgkings322]

He threw an 80 something pitch complete game at one point

It was 78 pitches (!)

According to available information, Greg Maddux once threw a complete game using only 78 pitches. This feat occurred on July 22, 1997, against the Chicago Cubs.

 

[calsnowskier]

He threw an 80 something pitch complete game at one point

Totally crazy

 

[calsnowskier]

I think Id be upset if Pedro and Young were higher than him. They are on opposite sides of the prime+volume conversation but I dont think either really makes sense super high.

For pitchers, I am probably more on the longevity side of the scale than the prime side of the scale, but I understand how someone else can be elsewhere. I understand either being higher OR lower.

Again, pitchers are hard to compare because there aren’t a lot of different metrics to dig into and have fun with.

 

[eaglesnut]

I agree with this, but DHoey made the argument that at least one of those could have arguably gone to Randy, which would have tied them both at 6.

Accolades are all very debatable. Getting too entrenched in using them as ammunition can get dicey.

I hear you, but also a freaking MVP. The accolades are pouring out his ass.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I agree with this, but DHoey made the argument that at least one of those could have arguably gone to Randy, which would have tied them both at 6.

Accolades are all very debatable. Getting too entrenched in using them as ammunition can get dicey.

but then you could also say he did not win some he should ... 2005, he had a 1.87 ERA, and yet was ranked third...

1990, he was arguably the best pitcher too....

 

[Clayton]

Imo, Maddux is a bit like Cal Ripken in that he was a good player for so long that people forget he was a total badass in his prime. Or at least thats how I saw it growing up.

 

[calsnowskier]

I hear you, but also a freaking MVP. The accolades are pouring out his ass.

Absolutely. My point is that the other guys all have super impressive accolades as well.

 

[chappee11]

yea... i know... just grouping them together because they are both very short primes... one being longer doesnt really make that untrue...

I guess Pedro has 7 seasons in his prime and had decent seasons outside his prime... which is different than Koufax, who only had his 5 season prime....

335.2 IP for Koufax in 1965
323IP for Koufax in 1966

He won the Cy Young both seasons and never pitched again. Brutal.

 

[calsnowskier]

but then you could also say he did not win some he should ... 2005, he had a 1.87 ERA, and yet was ranked third...

1990, he was arguably the best pitcher too....

Yup. I made that argument at the time. Bartolo’s CY could have gone to Roger.

Again, getting too entrenched the the exact accolades can get dicey. Just look at him and see that he actually GOT 7. Regardless how many he missed out on or how many he didn’t deserve, 7 is a disgusting number.

 

[calsnowskier]

Imo, Maddux is a bit like Cal Ripken in that he was a good player for so long that people forget he was a total badass in his prime. Or at least thats how I saw it growing up.

I am not sure I agree with this. He was a bad ass, and MAYBE he held on a bit too long, but he was never Timmeh-bad. He was never Price-bad. He was never Sale-bad.