Top 10 poll #14: #14 player in history - Runoff

[TheGoodMan19]

These guys don't apply but on a similar note, maybe we should do a "one hit wonder" poll. Off the top of my head, Fydrich has to be up there.

I remember that Monday night game against the Yankees vividly. So much talk about the weirdo from Detroit who talked to the baseball. He was odd but he had such infectious charm. My father was a huge Yankee fan but was rooting for Fidrych by the end.

Detroit wrecked him. Too much work on a 21 year old arm. And he had mediocre stuff, just great control. I think batter would have seen through the smoke and mirrors and figured him out. But The Bird would have been a blessing from heaven for baseball. In the late 70's, when all fans could talk about was free agency, huge contracts and labor unrest was killing the game.

 

[Pure Steel]

These guys don't apply but on a similar note, maybe we should do a "one hit wonder" poll. Off the top of my head, Fydrich has to be up there.

 

[Cedrique]

View attachment 388259

Yeah I guess that's a literal One Hit Wonder

 

[Pure Steel]

Yeah I guess that's a literal One Hit Wonder

Crazy story, look it up

 

[chappee11]

I think Shohei is getting WAY too much credit as a pitcher. He is good, but he has really only had 1 good season as a pitcher. If he were JUST a pitcher, he would be viewed as a low-end #2, strong #3, but with serious questions since he doesnt have a strong pitching track record.

He has a career ERA+ of 142. It’s only 480IP, but that is absolutely elite. Clemens career ERA+ is 143. For Randy Johnson it is 135. I know we have massive sample sizes for Clemens and Randy(including their full decline years), but a healthy Ohtani is an ace. They just won’t let him have the full workload of a starter because he’s too valuable as a hitter. And, given, his injury history, that is a wise move.

 

[Clayton]

He has a career ERA+ of 142. It’s only 480IP, but that is absolutely elite. Clemens career ERA+ is 143. For Randy Johnson it is 135. I know we have massive sample sizes for Clemens and Randy(including their full decline years), but a healthy Ohtani is an ace. They just won’t let him have the full workload of a starter because he’s too valuable as a hitter. And, given, his injury history, that is a wise move.

Peak ERA+ years are over 200 for some of these guys. I dont think Ohtani needs that to be one of the greats but we also shouldn't go out of our way to push him up, either.

 

[TheGoodMan19]

View attachment 388259

I seen him play for the Bisons in 1991.

 

[LHG]

He has a career ERA+ of 142. It’s only 480IP, but that is absolutely elite. Clemens career ERA+ is 143. For Randy Johnson it is 135. I know we have massive sample sizes for Clemens and Randy(including their full decline years), but a healthy Ohtani is an ace. They just won’t let him have the full workload of a starter because he’s too valuable as a hitter. And, given, his injury history, that is a wise move.

Brandon Webb also has an ERA+ of 142 (in 1319 IP). He won the Cy Young Award in 2006 and was runner up in 2007 and 2008. He then threw in one more game in 2009 and his career was over. He's not going to even get close to Top 100.

 

[calsnowskier]

If we're talking about Felix, I think I like Johan Santana slightly more. But I have a trouble taking more recent pitchers over a position player. I give a bump to the guys that used to put up some Complete Games and shutouts. Each generation there is a dropoff. Clemens and Johnson are probably the last couple of pitchers where those stats are more than just a fluky game here and there.

Please don’t take my mentioning of Felix as my stumping for him. Just mentioning him as a multi-award winner who doesn’t belong on this list (Timmeh as well). But Campanella has THREE MVPs. That is in the class of other greats, but heis NEVER mentioned with them

 

[broncosmitty]

I remember that Monday night game against the Yankees vividly. So much talk about the weirdo from Detroit who talked to the baseball. He was odd but he had such infectious charm. My father was a huge Yankee fan but was rooting for Fidrych by the end.

Detroit wrecked him. Too much work on a 21 year old arm. And he had mediocre stuff, just great control. I think batter would have seen through the smoke and mirrors and figured him out. But The Bird would have been a blessing from heaven for baseball. In the late 70's, when all fans could talk about was free agency, huge contracts and labor unrest was killing the game.

He got hurt jumping a fence in ST. Tore cartilage in his knee, missed two months, changed his stride when he came back. And tore his rotator cuff. I don’t think it was the workload from the year before tbh.

My parents went to a half dozen of his starts that one magical year.

 

[chappee11]

Zambrano, Bumgarner, Greinke, Cain…

All good hitters, but they didn’t put up MVP level batting numbers. Ohtani DID put up CY contending numbers at least once (a second season was strong, he just didn’t have the innings). Ohtani IS something special, but he has not demonstrated it NEARLY long enough to belong on this list, at this point, YET. And I really don’t think an argument can be made against that stance.

Appreciate what you are watching while you are watching it. But don’t fucking bonkers with your recency bias.

Tom Glavine was basically considered the best hitting pitcher of his day. His career OPS+ was 22.
For Greinke it was 60.
For Bumgarner it was 44.
For Zambrano it was 62.
For Cain it was -10. LOL.

You get the idea. All of these guys are lucky they had another day job. Could they have improved with more AB’s/practice? Maybe. But all would have most definitely still been at a sub-Luis Sojo level. Meanwhile, Ohtani’s OPS+ is 157.

The effort to diminish him on here is ridiculous. Most of this is coming from bitter Giants fans who have to watch him race to the HOF with the hated Dodgers. I get that. But we’ve never seen anything like Ohtani before. Not even close. Let’s stop pretending Carlos Zambrano could have had a similar career with a better hitting coach.

 

[calsnowskier]

lol. I didn’t say there are not players who had multiple awards who fizzled out.

Murphy is horribly under-rated. He needs to be the HOFer yesterday.

He probably deserves more than a whisper in this list, but I don’t think he deserves serious consideration just yet.

 

[Clayton]

Tom Glavine was basically considered the best hitting pitcher of his day. His career OPS+ was 22.
For Greinke it was 60.
For Bumgarner it was 44.
For Zambrano it was 62.
For Cain it was -10. LOL.

You get the idea. All of these guys are lucky they had another day job. Could they have improved with more AB’s/practice? Maybe. But all would have most definitely still been at a sub-Luis Sojo level. Meanwhile, Ohtani’s OPS+ is 157.

The effort to diminish him on here is ridiculous. Most of this is coming from bitter Giants fans who have to watch him race to the HOF with the hated Dodgers. I get that. But we’ve never seen anything like Ohtani before. Not even close. Let’s stop pretending Carlos Zambrano could have had a similar career with a better hitting coach.

I would like to say in general I'm trying to to diminish what he is doing. He is either going to end up top 10 once all is said and done or maybe fringe top 30. But that puts us in a bind for the list.

 

[calsnowskier]

These guys don't apply but on a similar note, maybe we should do a "one hit wonder" poll. Off the top of my head, Fydrich has to be up there.

There is another player who belongs, but I don’t remember his name…

 

[chappee11]

Brandon Webb also has an ERA+ of 142 (in 1319 IP). He won the Cy Young Award in 2006 and was runner up in 2007 and 2008. He then threw in one more game in 2009 and his career was over. He's not going to even get close to Top 100.

But that’s just it. Let’s say Ohtani is a Brandon Webb or Yu Darvish as a starting pitcher. That’s damn good. That’s a Cy Young level pitcher at his peak.

But Ohtani also hits like David Ortiz and Vlad Jr., too. He’s 2 superstar players at the same time.

I’ll remind you that he’s already won 3 unanimous MVP awards, as well. He’s not some unknown guy that we can’t properly evaluate.

 

[calsnowskier]

He has a career ERA+ of 142. It’s only 480IP, but that is absolutely elite. Clemens career ERA+ is 143. For Randy Johnson it is 135. I know we have massive sample sizes for Clemens and Randy(including their full decline years), but a healthy Ohtani is an ace. They just won’t let him have the full workload of a starter because he’s too valuable as a hitter. And, given, his injury history, that is a wise move.

Sample size is the only thing you wrote that matters. You simply can’t compare Clemens or Johnson to Ohtani as a pitcher. That is a gross insult to Clemens and Johnson.

 

[Clayton]

The two superstars thing at the same time is interesting. Isnt that kind of what Bench is as the greatest catcher and also a great hitter?

 

[calsnowskier]

Tom Glavine was basically considered the best hitting pitcher of his day. His career OPS+ was 22.
For Greinke it was 60.
For Bumgarner it was 44.
For Zambrano it was 62.
For Cain it was -10. LOL.

You get the idea. All of these guys are lucky they had another day job. Could they have improved with more AB’s/practice? Maybe. But all would have most definitely still been at a sub-Luis Sojo level. Meanwhile, Ohtani’s OPS+ is 157.

The effort to diminish him on here is ridiculous. Most of this is coming from bitter Giants fans who have to watch him race to the HOF with the hated Dodgers. I get that. But we’ve never seen anything like Ohtani before. Not even close. Let’s stop pretending Carlos Zambrano could have had a similar career with a better hitting coach.

Did you read my post? Did you read the context it was written in?

I was not saying those guys were anywhere near the level that Ohtani is. I even specifically mentioned that Ohtani was something special. And I have said numerous times that I expect, when all is said and done, that he could very well be considered a top 5 player if not higher.

But look at what he has done. Now tell me he belongs in the discussion at this point. Now I will call you a troll who is living in recency bias.

 

[chappee11]

Murphy is horribly under-rated. He needs to be the HOFer yesterday.

He probably deserves more than a whisper in this list, but I don’t think he deserves serious consideration just yet.

Why is Murphy a HOFer, though? His numbers are decent, but I’m not sure I’d even call them borderline. Is he more worthy than Mattingly or a Dwight Evans, for example? None of them have gotten a whiff of the HOF. None of them are even top 200 for the purposes of this conversation.

 

[calsnowskier]

But that’s just it. Let’s say Ohtani is a Brandon Webb or Yu Darvish as a starting pitcher. That’s damn good. That’s a Cy Young level pitcher at his peak.

But Ohtani also hits like David Ortiz and Vlad Jr., too. He’s 2 superstar players at the same time.

I’ll remind you that he’s already won 3 unanimous MVP awards, as well. He’s not some unknown guy that we can’t properly evaluate.

Ohtani may be this or he may be that. But he has only PRODUCED 2 solid season, and only 1 CY-level. But none of them are Ace-level because he simply doesn’t eat the innings. Don’t sell what he COULD do IF this or that. Sell what he has DONE. And based on that, you can’t sell much yet.