Top 10 poll #14: #14 player in history - Runoff

[chappee11]

Sample size is the only thing you wrote that matters. You simply can’t compare Clemens or Johnson to Ohtani as a pitcher. That is a gross insult to Clemens and Johnson.

Right. And I would never make the argument that Ohtani is a better pitcher than Clemens or Randy. It’s not even close and, likely, never will be.

But I also remember watching Randy hit. lol.

 

[TheGoodMan19]

There is another player who belongs, but I don’t remember his name…

There's been a few. I was thinking more of one year wonders. Like Bob "Hurricane" Hazle. Hit .403 in the 1957 pennant race for the Braves. Couldn't buy a hit before of after. Or Aaron Small. Guy bounces to every team in baseball. Goes to the Yanks and becomes Koufax. Down the stretch, he's the ace in a rotation with Randy Johnson and Mike Mussina

 

[TheGoodMan19]

Right. And I would never make the argument that Ohtani is a better pitcher than Clemens or Randy. It’s not even close and, likely, never will be.

But I also remember watching Randy hit. lol.

If Ohtani pitches past 2025, I'll be shocked. They won't need him as a pitcher and won't want to risk another TJ surgery and a Matt Harvey career arc.

 

[calsnowskier]

Right. And I would never make the argument that Ohtani is a better pitcher than Clemens or Randy. It’s not even close and, likely, never will be.

But I also remember watching Randy hit. lol.

He never claimed to be a hitter.

How is Ohtani in the field?

 

[chappee11]

Did you read my post? Did you read the context it was written in?

I was not saying those guys were anywhere near the level that Ohtani is. I even specifically mentioned that Ohtani was something special. And I have said numerous times that I expect, when all is said and done, that he could very well be considered a top 5 player if not higher.

But look at what he has done. Now tell me he belongs in the discussion at this point. Now I will call you a troll who is living in recency bias.

It’s not a troll at all. Ohtani is starting to get legitimate support at these levels. And for good reason. Unless everyone voting for him is “trolling”, people recognize that he belongs in the conversation even if he never plays another game.

The 3 unanimous MVPs speak for themselves. I didn’t research it heavily but I believe that nobody else in any of the major sports did that more than once. Not Jordan. Not Gretzky. Not Brady. Not Lebron. Not Kobe. Nobody. If he played for the Giants, you’d feel differently.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Ohtani may be this or he may be that. But he has only PRODUCED 2 solid season, and only 1 CY-level. But none of them are Ace-level because he simply doesn’t eat the innings. Don’t sell what he COULD do IF this or that. Sell what he has DONE. And based on that, you can’t sell much yet.

but he doesn't have to be an ace... if he does become an ace, he will probably be the best player of all time...

I think we all agree that where to place him in an all time list today is pretty hard... and he hasn't gotten enough traction yet in any of the runoffs.and it doesn't look like he will win soon... again being mentioned in the nominee section is not indicative to winning a runoff...

but I think he currently is top 40 player already... 3 MVPs in 7 seasons, I think is the fastest to three we have ever seen... I could be wrong, but both Pujols and Trout both did it in 9 seasons...

he is MUCH more than a potential all time great... and he is more than just a current player, he is the best we have ever seen doing something we have never seen before... so yea, he probably does get over-rated due to the fact that we have no clue how to evaluate him...

and his legend also gets overblown because he also gave us the asian market at a much stronger value than past Japanese players including Ichiro Suzuki...

 

[chappee11]

If Ohtani pitches past 2025, I'll be shocked. They won't need him as a pitcher and won't want to risk another TJ surgery and a Matt Harvey career arc.

I think they are paying him to be a pitcher and a hitter. I think he wants to pitch, too. But I’m guessing they will try and limit him to 20ish starts with firm pitch counts. So probably only 100-120 innings/year if he sticks with it.

 

[chappee11]

He never claimed to be a hitter.

How is Ohtani in the field?

When did Ohtani claim to be a fielder?

 

[Clayton]

How is Ohtani in the field?

Could you imagine a superstar who could hit and field? It would be like two superstars

 

[calsnowskier]

but he doesn't have to be an ace... if he does become an ace, he will probably be the best player of all time...

I think we all agree that where to place him in an all time list today is pretty hard... and he hasn't gotten enough traction yet in any of the runoffs.and it doesn't look like he will win soon... again being mentioned in the nominee section is not indicative to winning a runoff...

but I think he currently is top 40 player already... 3 MVPs in 7 seasons, I think is the fastest to three we have ever seen... I could be wrong, but both Pujols and Trout both did it in 9 seasons...

he is MUCH more than a potential all time great... and he is more than just a current player, he is the best we have ever seen doing something we have never seen before... so yea, he probably does get over-rated due to the fact that we have no clue how to evaluate him...

and his legend also gets overblown because he also gave us the asian market at a much stronger value than past Japanese players including Ichiro Suzuki...

I don’t disagree with anything here. Yes, 3 MVPs in 7 seasons is amazing. But 0 appearances outside of those 7 seasons tells a lot about longevity. MAYBE he will have amazing longevity and put up 25 more years averaging > 3 WAR. But he hasn’t done that yet. Bringing it up proves that those who are stumping for him are considering potential over resume.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I don’t disagree with anything here. Yes, 3 MVPs in 7 seasons is amazing. But 0 appearances outside of those 7 seasons tells a lot about longevity. MAYBE he will have amazing longevity and put up 25 more years averaging > 3 WAR. But he hasn’t done that yet. Bringing it up proves that those who are stumping for him are considering potential over resume.

I think that’s the thing. I am not fretting who makes it into the runoffs when they don’t have a legitimate chance of winning.

I don’t think the voters do the nominee voting only for the players they think will win. They may be voting only what they want to happen instead. Or be voting for whatever reason. But it is clear that he is not winning in the next 4 rounds at least.

 

[msgkings322]

These guys don't apply but on a similar note, maybe we should do a "one hit wonder" poll. Off the top of my head, Fydrich has to be up there.

Doc Gooden. JR Richard.

Gonna be mostly pitchers on this list. Camilo Doval.

 

[Cedrique]

There's been a few. I was thinking more of one year wonders. Like Bob "Hurricane" Hazle. Hit .403 in the 1957 pennant race for the Braves. Couldn't buy a hit before of after. Or Aaron Small. Guy bounces to every team in baseball. Goes to the Yanks and becomes Koufax. Down the stretch, he's the ace in a rotation with Randy Johnson and Mike Mussina

Wow, I don't even remember Aaron Small. That was a nice run he had

 

[chappee11]

Doc Gooden. JR Richard.

Gonna be mostly pitchers on this list. Camilo Doval.

Doc Gooden played for 16 years and pitched 2800 innings. How is he a “one hit wonder”?

 

[Cedrique]

Doc Gooden. JR Richard.

Gonna be mostly pitchers on this list. Camilo Doval.

I was thinking more like 1 or 2 great seasons (leaning towards 1). Gooden and Richard had several each. But I never heard of Camilo Doval. Maybe he has potential

 

[Cedrique]

There is another player who belongs, but I don’t remember his name…

Yeah I think there's another pitcher like that. Or I could just be thinking of a character in a movie or a Johnny Cash or Bruce Springsteen song...

 

[msgkings322]

Doc Gooden played for 16 years and pitched 2800 innings. How is he a “one hit wonder”?

Only one truly great season though (one of the best single seasons for a pitcher in history). That was his 2nd season, his ROY season was pretty great too.

 

[msgkings322]

I was thinking more like 1 or 2 great seasons (leaning towards 1). Gooden and Richard had several each. But I never heard of Camilo Doval. Maybe he has potential

Gooden had one all time great season and a very good rookie season right before. That's it.

Looking at JR he actually had no great seasons, and a couple good ones. In 1980 he was having his best season ever, and then he had a stroke and his career was over. Not even a one hit wonder really.

Doval in 2023 looked like he could be an all time great closer. Now not so much.

 

[TheGoodMan19]

Doc Gooden. JR Richard.

Gonna be mostly pitchers on this list. Camilo Doval.

JR was a terrifying pitcher. He had five good season and was getting better each year. 300+ strikeouts in 1978 and 1979. Probably deserved the Cy in 1979. Was destroyed by the Astros Thinking his dead arm complaints was just sour grapes. Johnny Bench, Mike Schmidt and other said he wasthe fastest ever, much more than Nolan Ryan

 

[msgkings322]

JR was a terrifying pitcher. He had five good season and was getting better each year. 300+ strikeouts in 1978 and 1979. Probably deserved the Cy in 1979. Was destroyed by the Astros Thinking his dead arm complaints was just sour grapes. Johnny Bench, Mike Schmidt and other said he wasthe fastest ever, much more than Nolan Ryan

Eh, the numbers aren't that great for him. 1980 was his best season ever until a stroke ended his career. 1979 was by far his best full season.

In 1979 he was 3rd in CY voting, with 5.6 WAR and 130 ERA+. The Cy winner that year was Bruce Sutter though, so depends how you feel about relievers winning that. 2nd in voting was Joe Niekro (same team, probably split some votes), and JR definitely had a better year than him. But Niekro had 21 wins back when those mattered to voters.

I do agree he was special and it was sad how it ended. I think I heard he ended up homeless for a while.

J.R. Richard Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com

Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of J.R. Richard. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com

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