POLL Top 10 poll #13: #13 player in history - Runoff

[MilkSpiller22]

Because of PEDs, or because he doesn’t belong?

this made me laugh... not because i think pettite belongs... he doesnt...

 

[calsnowskier]

if one vote is going to matter, i would happily change it to him.... but if all Clemens voters voted for Johnson here instead, Johnson would beat Schmidt pretty easily in the 2nd runoff... but there is no way Clemens will beat Schmidt in the second runoff

You are assuming all pitcher voters want a pitcher and all hitter voters want a hitter.

I would vote Clemens 1, but if he does not advance, I am not giving my vote to Johnson. Both Schmidt and Rickey would get my vote here before Randy.

 

[calsnowskier]

Because of PEDs, or because he doesn’t belong?

Because he failed a test when it was officially illegal. He was playing football on a baseball diamond. Same with Cano, Ramirez and ARod.

Spoiler

Also because he doesn’t belong, but that is beside the point.

 

[chappee11]

Because he failed a test when it was officially illegal. He was playing football on a baseball diamond. Same with Cano, Ramirez and ARod.

Pettitte and Clemens were attached at the hip. Pettitte even implicated The Rocket, himself:

Roger Clemens' involvement with Andy Pettitte and performance-enhancing drugs (PEDs) became a notable part of the steroid controversy in baseball. The key point of connection between the two came through Pettitte’s testimony during the Mitchell Report and in a later deposition during Clemens' legal proceedings.

1. Andy Pettitte’s Testimony: Pettitte admitted in 2007 that he had used human growth hormone (HGH) in 2002, after a conversation with Clemens. Pettitte stated that Clemens had mentioned using HGH to recover from an injury, and that Clemens encouraged him to do so. Pettitte didn't accuse Clemens of directly using HGH himself, but the implication was that Clemens had introduced him to the idea. Pettitte later said that Clemens had also admitted to using HGH, but Clemens vehemently denied it.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

You are assuming all pitcher voters want a pitcher and all hitter voters want a hitter.

I would vote Clemens 1, but if he does not advance, I am not giving my vote to Johnson. Both Schmidt and Rickey would get my vote here before Randy.

no, that is not my assumption... actually the opposite... i think more of the people voting for offense will vote pitcher if it is not clemens... if you dont want to vote Johnson, you dont have to... nobody does...

 

[calsnowskier]

Pettitte and Clemens were attached at the hip. Pettitte even implicated The Rocket, himself:

Roger Clemens' involvement with Andy Pettitte and performance-enhancing drugs (PEDs) became a notable part of the steroid controversy in baseball. The key point of connection between the two came through Pettitte’s testimony during the Mitchell Report and in a later deposition during Clemens' legal proceedings.

1. Andy Pettitte’s Testimony: Pettitte admitted in 2007 that he had used human growth hormone (HGH) in 2002, after a conversation with Clemens. Pettitte stated that Clemens had mentioned using HGH to recover from an injury, and that Clemens encouraged him to do so. Pettitte didn't accuse Clemens of directly using HGH himself, but the implication was that Clemens had introduced him to the idea. Pettitte later said that Clemens had also admitted to using HGH, but Clemens vehemently denied it.

One has an official failed test while PEDs were illegal in the game.

One has allegations and hearsay about when PEDs were NOT illegal in the game.

If you don’t see the difference in those two situations, I don’t know how I can help.

Again, for the record, I BELIEVE Clemens used. But the actual documentable facts do not conclusively prove this point, and therefore, he is not guilty (not “innocent”, just “not guilty”)

 

[steveringo]

When will we start talking about Frank Viola?

 

[calsnowskier]

When will we start talking about Frank Viola?

Well, seeing as you just brought him up…

Now?

 

[calsnowskier]

I stand corrected.

I misremembered the circumstances around Pettitte. He never failed a test, and to my knowledge, never was linked to PEDs in any way once they became illegal in the game. He only admitted to using them in the pre-ban years.

My apologies.

 

[chappee11]

One has an official failed test while PEDs were illegal in the game.

One has allegations and hearsay about when PEDs were NOT illegal in the game.

If you don’t see the difference in those two situations, I don’t know how I can help.

Again, for the record, I BELIEVE Clemens used. But the actual documentable facts do not conclusively prove this point, and therefore, he is not guilty (not “innocent”, just “not guilty”)

Does it sway your opinion of Clemens at all that he tried to throw his own wife under the bus for steroid use?

“Roger Clemens suggested that his wife, Debbie, was the one who unknowingly received performance-enhancing drugs. This occurred during a 2008 press conference when Clemens was addressing allegations made against him in the Mitchell Report, which claimed he had used steroids and HGH during his career.

Clemens explained that he and his wife had been given injections by his former trainer, Brian McNamee, and that Debbie had received some of the HGH injections, not him. Clemens claimed that McNamee had "misremembered" the details and that it was actually his wife who had used the substances, not him.

This defense did not help Clemens' case significantly. Many found it hard to believe that McNamee, who had been a trusted trainer to Clemens, would have given drugs to Debbie Clemens without the husband's knowledge. Additionally, McNamee's testimony during Clemens' legal proceedings contradicted this claim. Ultimately, Clemens’ attempt to shift blame did not clear his name in the eyes of many critics, and he faced legal battles and public skepticism as a result.”

Plausible deniability?

 

[calsnowskier]

Per Wiki, here is a list of notable players who all failed a test, and thus, is exempt from this list imho…

Rafael Palmeiro
Manny Ramirez (x2)
Bartolo Colon
Ryan Braun
Nelson Cruz
Alex Rodriguez (x2)
Miguel Tejada
Chris Davis
Dee Gordon
Starling Marte
Robinson Cano (x2)
Fernando Tatis Jr

 

[chappee11]

I stand corrected.

I misremembered the circumstances around Pettitte. He never failed a test, and to my knowledge, never was linked to PEDs in any way once they became illegal in the game. He only admitted to using them in the pre-ban years.

My apologies.

Pettitte tested positive for HGH in 2002…or am I “misremembering”?

 

[calsnowskier]

Does it sway your opinion of Clemens at all that he tried to throw his own wife under the bus for steroid use?

“Roger Clemens suggested that his wife, Debbie, was the one who unknowingly received performance-enhancing drugs. This occurred during a 2008 press conference when Clemens was addressing allegations made against him in the Mitchell Report, which claimed he had used steroids and HGH during his career.

Clemens explained that he and his wife had been given injections by his former trainer, Brian McNamee, and that Debbie had received some of the HGH injections, not him. Clemens claimed that McNamee had "misremembered" the details and that it was actually his wife who had used the substances, not him.

This defense did not help Clemens' case significantly. Many found it hard to believe that McNamee, who had been a trusted trainer to Clemens, would have given drugs to Debbie Clemens without the husband's knowledge. Additionally, McNamee's testimony during Clemens' legal proceedings contradicted this claim. Ultimately, Clemens’ attempt to shift blame did not clear his name in the eyes of many critics, and he faced legal battles and public skepticism as a result.”

Plausible deniability?

No.

for arguments sake, let’s agree that he used (which I actually believe!).

It doesn’t matter because it was legal in the game at the time. A stated desire that players not use them does not equate to them being illegal.

 

[calsnowskier]

Pettitte tested positive for HGH in 2002…or am I “misremembering”?

Was that the blind test that bonds “failed” as well?

The one that was taken for the sole purpose is gauging the prevalence of PEDs in the game? Before they were outlawed by the game (2005)? The same test that was leaked and was intended to be totally anonymous?

No. you aren’t misremembering.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Per Wiki, here is a list of notable players who all failed a test, and thus, is exempt from this list imho…

Rafael Palmeiro
Manny Ramirez (x2)
Bartolo Colon
Ryan Braun
Nelson Cruz
Alex Rodriguez (x2)
Miguel Tejada
Chris Davis
Dee Gordon
Starling Marte
Robinson Cano (x2)
Fernando Tatis Jr

if i remember correctly... Didnt Chris davis get totally screwed by the rules... and wasnt his failure not steroids...

if i remember correctly, Davis was taking something a doctor perscribed him for an actual problem he was having.... it just happened to have PEDs... and this drug was ok the previous year...

 

[calsnowskier]

if i remember correctly... Didnt Chris davis get totally screwed by the rules... and wasnt his failure not steroids...

if i remember correctly, Davis was taking something a doctor perscribed him for an actual problem he was having.... it just happened to have PEDs... and this drug was ok the previous year...

Davis is well down the list for this discussion anyway, so I don’t really care. ARod is an alltime great, regardless of him cheating. But he broke rule #2 (after gambling) when he broke it, therefore, he is DQ’d. Breaking the PEDs rules in the ‘00s is just flaunting your blatant disregard for the game.

 

[Cedrique]

I stand corrected.

I misremembered the circumstances around Pettitte. He never failed a test, and to my knowledge, never was linked to PEDs in any way once they became illegal in the game. He only admitted to using them in the pre-ban years.

My apologies.

That's it??? You "misremembered"? You think people are going to remember that after all the damage you've done to his reputation???? And for the record, I don't even believe your apology is sincere.....

 

[calsnowskier]

That's it??? You "misremembered"? You think people are going to remember that after all the damage you've done to his reputation???? And for the record, I don't even believe your apology is sincere.....

You figured me out. But just wait til you see the culmination of my ultimate plan.

It will truly be glorious. It will be grand. They are all saying it. Some are saying it is the grandest plan ever. A beautiful plan, really.

 

[Cedrique]

You figured me out. But just wait til you see the culmination of my ultimate plan.

It will truly be glorious. It will be grand. They are all saying it. Some are saying it is the grandest plan ever. A beautiful plan, really.

Wait, are you trying to destroy Andy Pettitte or take control of Greenland?

then again, who says you can't do both?

 

[calsnowskier]

Wait, are you trying to destroy Andy Pettitte or take control of Greenland?

then again, who says you can't do both?