Top 10 poll #9: #9 player in history - Runoff

[calsnowskier]

I guess that begs the question: Is Bob Gibson better than Musial? Gibson is the reason for post season success.

Gibby is a top 5 pitcher (maybe). So really it comes down to if there will be a run on pitchers after Johnson (likely) wins this spot. Will Clemens and Young follow quickly? Will Musial follow up his inertia and take the #10 spot?

 

[Clayton]

i really do wonder why some of you cardinal fans have so much love for Musial vs players like Pujols... I think pujols is better than Musial... and- i will use my staple comment- i dont even think it is close...

Im going to sound like a broken record but longevity. I suspect many Cardinal fans IRL put Ozzie Smith and Pujols on a pedestal because they've seen them play, though.

Like I said earlier, if its just the first half of his career than Pujols is the best Cardinal. I'm generally under the assumption that the shift ruined his shot at a top 12ish spot.

 

[calsnowskier]

i really do wonder why some of you cardinal fans have so much love for Musial vs players like Pujols... I think pujols is better than Musial... and- i will use my staple comment- i dont even think it is close...

Pujols really is a beast. And probably needs more love than he is getting.

But 1B, and later DH, hurts him in my eyes.

 

[Clayton]

Will Musial follow up his inertia and take the #10 spot?

If he doesnt go top 12 then Hank Aaron is going to look really weird on the list imo

 

[calsnowskier]

Im going to sound like a broken record but longevity. I suspect many Cardinal fans IRL put Ozzie Smith and Pujols on a pedestal because they've seen them play, though.

Like I said earlier, if its just the first half of his career than Pujols is the best Cardinal. I'm generally under the assumption that the shift ruined his shot at a top 12ish spot.

Smith is one of the most over-rated players ever. The flip was a stroke of marketing genius.

 

[LHG]

I agree that longevity is A component of greatness. But peak is more of a component, imho.

And career rate stats are next to pointless. I don’t really understand why people are mentioning them.

Have to use something, especially if WAR is flawed and OPS+ is flawed and ERA+ is flawed. Baseball is a stat sport. How else do you rate the best of the best? Without them, even if they are all flawed, you are left to determine a player based on swagger, aura, legend and likeability. That sure is a flawed way of determining the best.

 

[calsnowskier]

If he doesnt go top 12 then Hank Aaron is going to look really weird on the list imo

I think AAron is WAY too high on this list. But I acknowledge I have a minority opinion on that seeing as he is usually rated higher than where we put him.

 

[LHG]

If he doesnt go top 12 then Hank Aaron is going to look really weird on the list imo

Aaron is the biggest over ranked player on this list, in my opinion (I was thinking Mantle but I was hamstringing him based on the fact that his career was shorter. Which brings up a question I don't remember the answer to, why did he hang it up after 16 seasons? Should he be given the benefit of the doubt that he had more in him?). He should still be in the mix now, not in the 5 spot.

 

[calsnowskier]

Have to use something, especially if WAR is flawed and OPS+ is flawed and ERA+ is flawed. Baseball is a stat sport. How else do you rate the best of the best? Without them, even if they are all flawed, you are left to determine a player based on swagger, aura, legend and likeability. That sure is a flawed way of determining the best.

I like looking at OPS+ in annual buckets. How many seasons did he have at 120 or higher? 130? 140? Etc.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Pujols really is a beast. And probably needs more love than he is getting.

But 1B, and later DH, hurts him in my eyes.

true... Pujols had 12 seasons with the Cardinals and was on track of being a top 10 player of all time... then he left, and so did his stats... his last 12 seasons were just accumulators, with the occasional good season sprinkled in...

but what is even weirder, if he retired after after his cardinal career, and if he retired with a tragic reason... he would be seen similar to Gehrig... it was his back end 12 that ruined his rep...

 

[calsnowskier]

Aaron is the biggest over ranked player on this list, in my opinion (I was thinking Mantle but I was hamstringing him based on the fact that his career was shorter. Which brings up a question I don't remember the answer to, why did he hang it up after 16 seasons? Should he be given the benefit of the doubt that he had more in him?). He should still be in the mix now, not in the 5 spot.

I have Hornsby, Wagner, Clemens and Johnson all CLEARLY over Musial. I have Musial in a group of players like Henderson, Frank Robinson, Paige, Young, etc. I am not certain he is top 15 for me.

 

[Clayton]

Smith is one of the most over-rated players ever. The flip was a stroke of marketing genius.

I do think he is the 4th or 5th best Cardinal but not a top 40 player of all time. It does beg the question: how many great players were in the 80s?

 

[calsnowskier]

true... Pujols had 12 seasons with the Cardinals and was on track of being a top 10 player of all time... then he left, and so did his stats... his last 12 seasons were just accumulators, with the occasional good season sprinkled in...

but what is even weirder, if he retired after after his cardinal career, and if he retired with a tragic reason... he would be seen similar to Gehrig... it was his back end 12 that ruined his rep...

Which is exactly why I like WAR# and annual buckets rather than career rates or accumulations. I hate downgrading Henderson because he loved the game and couldn’t walk away.

 

[Clayton]

I have Hornsby, Wagner, Clemens and Johnson all CLEARLY over Musial. I have Musial in a group of players like Henderson, Frank Robinson, Paige, Young, etc. I am not certain he is top 15 for me.

I think its fair to group Musial with Cy Young. Not sure about the rest.

 

[LHG]

true... Pujols had 12 seasons with the Cardinals and was on track of being a top 10 player of all time... then he left, and so did his stats... his last 12 seasons were just accumulators, with the occasional good season sprinkled in...

but what is even weirder, if he retired after after his cardinal career, and if he retired with a tragic reason... he would be seen similar to Gehrig... it was his back end 12 that ruined his rep...

Pujols' WAR7 is 61.7 and Gehrig's is 67.6 (Musial's is 64.5).

To further compare the three (I'm taking your earlier posts of why Cardinals' fans give more love to Musial than Pujols and mashing it in with your comparison of Gehrig and Pujols), Pujols had an OPS+ of 145, Gehrig a 179 and Musial a 159. Now if you eliminate Pujols' non Cardinal seasons, his OPS+ is 169. But to do a apples to apples comparsion, we would need to also figure out the OPS+ of the best 12 year stretch of Musial as well. Pujols' Angels' years (that short stretch with the Dodgers) still exists and do have to be factored.

WAR7 gives the best idea of peak and Musial is better in that regard (with Gehrig better than both).

 

[calsnowskier]

I do think he is the 4th or 5th best Cardinal but not a top 40 player of all time. It does beg the question: how many great players were in the 80s?

No order, off the top of my head…

Schmidt
Sandberg
Henderson
Fisk
Morgan
Ripken
Murphy
Maddux
Clemens
Eckersley
Dawson
Raines

 

[LHG]

Which is exactly why I like WAR# and annual buckets rather than career rates or accumulations. I hate downgrading Henderson because he loved the game and couldn’t walk away.

Henderson's WAR7 is 57.6. There are still 22 players not ranked yet who had a better WAR7 than Rickey.

 

[Clayton]

No order, off the top of my head…

Schmidt
Sandberg
Henderson
Fisk
Morgan
Ripken
Murphy
Maddux
Clemens
Eckersley
Dawson
Raines

I'd take Ozzie Smith over 3 or 4 names on that list. Joe Morgans prime was 70s for sure, too.

How many SS you taking over Ozzie Smith?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Pujols' WAR7 is 61.7 and Gehrig's is 67.6 (Musial's is 64.5).

To further compare the three (I'm taking your earlier posts of why Cardinals' fans give more love to Musial than Pujols and mashing it in with your comparison of Gehrig and Pujols), Pujols had an OPS+ of 145, Gehrig a 179 and Musial a 159. Now if you eliminate Pujols' non Cardinal seasons, his OPS+ is 169. But to do a apples to apples comparsion, we would need to also figure out the OPS+ of the best 12 year stretch of Musial as well. Pujols' Angels' years (that short stretch with the Dodgers) still exists and do have to be factored.

WAR7 gives the best idea of peak and Musial is better in that regard (with Gehrig better than both).

61, 64 and 67 are pretty close though... close enough to recognize that the replacement player and the times are significantly different...

 

[LHG]

I have Hornsby, Wagner, Clemens and Johnson all CLEARLY over Musial. I have Musial in a group of players like Henderson, Frank Robinson, Paige, Young, etc. I am not certain he is top 15 for me.

I have Johnson, Hornsby, Young and Speaker over Musial. I see Clemens and Wagner maybe slipping in above Musial. Still puts him in top 15.

I think you are over ranking Henderson. Those stolen bases were sexy and so were the lead off home runs but legend maybe putting him further than he deserves. I have Robinson higher than Henderson but still closer to top 25.