POLL Top 10 poll: #26 player in history - Runoff 2

[calsnowskier]

i have said this before... Mickey Mantle is famous for taking Roids... but his steroids just didnt help him... and probably even hurt him more...

And Aaron was well known to be a greenie-popper.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I just can’t list ANY closer over a starter. I may have trouble ranking Mo over even some non-great SPs. Closers just don’t carry enough of the load to be ranked in a project like this.

All that, and I still remember back to teams that didn’t have a closer and how it absolutely killed the teams chances. I am not certain how to reconcile that.

2001 hurt him in that you can’t use the word perfect about him. And that specialness could have jumped him higher.

He is still the best reliever of all time. I would rank him higher than anyone with less than 3 cy and less than 10 elite seasons. I’d think. But again i may change my mind.

 

[msgkings322]

And Aaron was well known to be a greenie-popper.

I looked his numbers up for fun...the guy was an all star 25 times (!), because for a few years they used to have 2 all star games per season

But only 1 MVP, never over 47 home runs...his career OPS+ was 155 though because he was productive every single year during a time where offense was subdued especially in the 1960s.

 

[calsnowskier]

I looked his numbers up for fun...the guy was an all star 25 times (!), because for a few years they used to have 2 all star games per season

But only 1 MVP, never over 47 home runs...his career OPS+ was 155 though because he was productive every single year during a time where offense was subdued especially in the 1960s.

Yup. I have always been pretty anti-Aaron because he never really had a peak. This project, though, moved my opinion a LOT towards the opinion that he was much less over-rated than I always attributed to him. He is almost a unicorn in how amazing his longevity was, at an all-star plus level.

He is almost the opposite of Sandy Koufax.

 

[msgkings322]

Yup. I have always been pretty anti-Aaron because he never really had a peak. This project, though, moved my opinion a LOT towards the opinion that he was much less over-rated than I always attributed to him. He is almost a unicorn in how amazing his longevity was, at an all-star plus level.

He is almost the opposite of Sandy Koufax.

Yeah his whole career was a peak for most players

 

[calsnowskier]

Yeah his whole career was a peak for most players

His WAR7 does not do him justice. His WAR20 doesn’t do him justice.

But his consistency between all the WAR# between WAR7 and WAR20 is what tells his story.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

His WAR7 does not do him justice. His WAR20 doesn’t do him justice.

But his consistency between all the WAR# between WAR7 and WAR20 is what tells his story.

14 seasons of being a top 5 in the league in WAR... but only best once...

but he gets hurt because of his defense... if you look at OPS

3 times he was the best, 12 more times he was top 5...

he really was an all time great... he just never had the special season which you would expect from a top 10...

but hard not to place him there, as his ONE OF THE BEST PLAYER longevity was longer than basically anyone else...


i do think we ranked him too high... but i also think he is a top 10 player of all time... so it wasnt that bad...

he also gets points for the accumulation milestone stats...

 

[calsnowskier]

I

14 seasons of being a top 5 in the league in WAR... but only best once...

but he gets hurt because of his defense... if you look at OPS

3 times he was the best, 12 more times he was top 5...

he really was an all time great... he just never had the special season which you would expect from a top 10...

but hard not to place him there, as his ONE OF THE BEST PLAYER longevity was longer than basically anyone else...


i do think we ranked him too high... but i also think he is a top 10 player of all time... so it wasnt that bad...

he also gets points for the accumulation milestone stats...

still think Cobb deserved the #5 spot, but that, ultimately, is quibbling. As long as a guy gets within a few slots of where he belongs, I am good.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I

still think Cobb deserved the #5 spot, but that, ultimately, is quibbling. As long as a guy gets within a few slots of where he belongs, I am good.

so do i... but Aaron has a lot of EXTRAs added to him... the fact he was the HR King(and still is according to most), the fact that he is part of the first generation of AA players to join the league gives him an emotional boost...

by just the numbers, he is probably not even top 10... but his extras and milestones are huge...

 

[eaglesnut]

by just the numbers, he is probably not even top 10... but his extras and milestones are huge...

He does have the most extra base hits all time

 

[Cedrique]

There is a very clear distinction between B&C and ARod. Not sure how that gets lost.

But I agree about ARod’s placement. Ignore the PEDs thing, and he is pushing top 10, imho. But he wasn’t playing baseball, so he is hard to rank ANYWHERE in a baseball list.

what does that even mean?

 

[eaglesnut]

what does that even mean?

He explains it elsewhere.

Baseball has rules that he broke while others were limited by the rules. Like a guy running around with the ball in basketball. The other guys have to dribble, but he gets to run around. That's not basketball. That's an advantage.

 

[calsnowskier]

He explains it elsewhere.

Baseball has rules that he broke while others were limited by the rules. Like a guy running around with the ball in basketball. The other guys have to dribble, but he gets to run around. That's not basketball. That's an advantage.

Perfect explanation. Thank you.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

He explains it elsewhere.

Baseball has rules that he broke while others were limited by the rules. Like a guy running around with the ball in basketball. The other guys have to dribble, but he gets to run around. That's not basketball. That's an advantage.

I am trying to understand if it is only @calsnowskier interpretation of the rules or if it is a well accepted view.

Was steroids allowed in the 90s or was it just that there was no defined testing nor punishment.

Like if baseball and teams did not turn a blind eye to it, could they have done anything to any player that was proven guilty?? I know the US had laws against it pre 1990s.

 

[Cedrique]

Perfect explanation. Thank you.

Personally, I don't think it's the best analogy but if we're going with it then in ARod's case he came into the league at a time when anyone could run with the ball without repercussions and many did. And for 9 years he averaged 8.0 WAR in a league in which many other people who "ran with the ball". He belongs in a discussion of great baseball players based on that alone.

 

[calsnowskier]

Personally, I don't think it's the best analogy but if we're going with it then in ARod's case he came into the league at a time when anyone could run with the ball without repercussions and many did. And for 9 years he averaged 8.0 WAR in a league in which many other people who "ran with the ball". He belongs in a discussion of great baseball players based on that alone.

I understand that argument. But he got caught running with the ball when everyone in the world knew running with the ball was no longer allowed, and moreover, it was the BIGGEST rule in the game. If he had that kind of gall to continue running with the ball in that environment, that tells me he is probably doing lots of other stuff that is against the rules as well.

There are only 5 players who have potential in this discussion who fall into this category (Palmeiro, Cano, Rodriguez, Tatis, Ramirez). EVERYONE else got the message.

 

[msgkings322]

Personally, I don't think it's the best analogy but if we're going with it then in ARod's case he came into the league at a time when anyone could run with the ball without repercussions and many did. And for 9 years he averaged 8.0 WAR in a league in which many other people who "ran with the ball". He belongs in a discussion of great baseball players based on that alone.

This is part of the reason I don’t discount the roid guys. Yeah everyone was using but only Bonds and Clemens put up those kind of numbers

 

[calsnowskier]

This is part of the reason I don’t discount the roid guys. Yeah everyone was using but only Bonds and Clemens put up those kind of numbers

They were the baddest men in a crowd of bad men.

 

[msgkings322]

3 way tie with 8 votes as of now lol

 

[eaglesnut]

And for 9 years he averaged 8.0 WAR in a league in which many other people who "ran with the ball". He belongs in a discussion of great baseball players based on that alone.

I agree with this part. He was damn good early on too. That's why I can vote him soon, but not yet.