Top 10 poll #9: #9 player in history - Runoff

[calsnowskier]

Henderson's WAR7 is 57.6. There are still 22 players not ranked yet who had a better WAR7 than Rickey.

Rickey is a unicorn. His impact was on the field, but didn’t show up on HIS baseball card.

 

[LHG]

61, 64 and 67 are pretty close though... close enough to recognize that the replacement player and the times are significantly different...

Except those are already supposed to factor in the different times and replacement players. Other players with a WAR7 higher than Pujols:
Honus Wagner
Eddie Collins
Alex Rodriguez
Tris Speaker

Should they all be in the conversation now as well?

 

[calsnowskier]

I'd take Ozzie Smith over 3 or 4 names on that list. Joe Morgans prime was 70s for sure, too.

How many SS you taking over Ozzie Smith?

Ripken, ARod, Wagner, Vaughan…

 

[LHG]

Rickey is a unicorn. His impact was on the field, but didn’t show up on HIS baseball card.

That takes us back to the Oscar Charleston conversation early in this ranking process. Do we go off legend or stats, because Charleston has legend, we just happened to see Rickey's legend get built, we didn't for Charleston.

 

[calsnowskier]

I have Johnson, Hornsby, Young and Speaker over Musial. I see Clemens and Wagner maybe slipping in above Musial. Still puts him in top 15.

I think you are over ranking Henderson. Those stolen bases were sexy and so were the lead off home runs but legend maybe putting him further than he deserves. I have Robinson higher than Henderson but still closer to top 25.

I fully admit I have a bias for Rickey, and have said as much multiple times.

 

[Clayton]

Ripken, ARod, Wagner, Vaughan…

I guess the ... is where the semantics come in. Like I said, not top 40 but if he is SS 5 or SS 6 all time then he is certainly top 100.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Except those are already supposed to factor in the different times and replacement players. Other players with a WAR7 higher than Pujols:
Honus Wagner
Eddie Collins
Alex Rodriguez
Tris Speaker

Should they all be in the conversation now as well?

if you are promoting to use multiple stats, then I agree. Always have been a full analysis guy. Not a single stat guy.

All I said is those wars are close enough that it doesn’t show enough of a dominance. Which allows me to identify what I don’t like about war.

Adjusted stats also got much stronger the larger the player pool has gotten. And that’s for obvious mathematical reasons.

 

[LHG]

if you are promoting to use multiple stats, then I agree. Always have been a full analysis guy. Not a single stat guy.

All I said is those wars are close enough that it doesn’t show enough of a dominance. Which allows me to identify what I don’t like about war.

Adjusted stats also got much stronger the larger the player pool is for obvious mathematical reasons.

It still shows that Pujols best years weren't as good as Musial's best years, which helps to understand why Musial over Pujols for Cardinals' fans.

Pujols is good, he is top 30 for me, but not good enough to say he's better than Musial.

 

[calsnowskier]

I guess the ... is where the semantics come in. Like I said, not top 40 but if he is SS 5 or SS 6 all time then he is certainly top 100.

Those 4 were not intended to be all inclusive. Just 4 guys off the top of my head. And I wouldn’t even die on any of their hills in this comparison (I would honestly need to look closer at Vaughan, for example)

 

[Clayton]

Those 4 were not intended to be all inclusive. Just 4 guys off the top of my head. And I wouldn’t even die on any of their hills in this comparison (I would honestly need to look closer at Vaughan, for example)

It does seem like all Im hearing is that all of the Cardinals players are overrated, though.

 

[calsnowskier]

It does seem like all Im hearing is that all of the Cardinals players are overrated, though.

To be fair, you only bring up Cardinal players. And when you bring Smith to this table, you are setting yourself up for that kind of retort.

Musial, Gibson, Pujols, Brock (whom you haven’t brought up, interestingly) would be taken more seriously, imho.

 

[calsnowskier]

And it is downright criminal that you haven’t stumped for Royce Clayton, Jack Clark, Will Clark, Willie McGee or Orlando Cepeda.

Do you even follow the Cards?

 

[Clayton]

To be fair, you only bring up Cardinal players. And when you bring Smith to this table, you are setting yourself up for that kind of retort.

Musial, Gibson, Pujols, Brock (whom you haven’t brought up, interestingly) would be taken more seriously, imho.

That is fair. I'm trying to feel this out, though, and generally people should talk about what they know. Its just that you are iffy on Musial, iffy on Gibson, and going out of your way to mention Ozzie Smith and Yadi being overrated.

I certainly wouldn't bring up Brock this high. I probably have Hornsby and Walter Johnson as my next two so Johnson going here works.

 

[calsnowskier]

That is fair. I'm trying to feel this out, though, and generally people should talk about what they know. Its just that you are iffy on Musial, iffy on Gibson, and going out of your way to mention Ozzie Smith and Yadi being overrated.

I certainly wouldn't bring up Brock this high. I probably have Hornsby and Walter Johnson as my next two so Johnson going here works.

First, I apologize for coming at you as harsh as I did. This shouldn’t go personal.

Brock shouldn’t be here, I agree. But he is AT LEAST in the rotating names area at the bottom of the nom list. And he was the best at a portion of the game for a very long time. If Johnson gets credit for being the K king for 40 years, shouldn’t Brock get love for being the SB king for so long?

 

[Clayton]

First, I apologize for coming at you as harsh as I did. This shouldn’t go personal.

Brock shouldn’t be here, I agree. But he is AT LEAST in the rotating names area at the bottom of the nom list. And he was the best at a portion of the game for a very long time. If Johnson gets credit for being the K king for 40 years, shouldn’t Brock get love for being the SB king for so long?

Its not personal. Its just weird. I would probably go as far to suggest that Cardinals baseball is the closest thing to a cultish fanbase that I know of. Its one team that pretty much controls a whole metro area and has multigenerational success going back a very long time. So I kinda know my opinion is already completely compromised.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

That is fair. I'm trying to feel this out, though, and generally people should talk about what they know. Its just that you are iffy on Musial, iffy on Gibson, and going out of your way to mention Ozzie Smith and Yadi being overrated.

I certainly wouldn't bring up Brock this high. I probably have Hornsby and Walter Johnson as my next two so Johnson going here works.

i dont think all are over-rated... i have Pujols in the top 20, probably top 15... i do think Musial is very over-rated though... he was the man though...

also, dont think gibson is over-rated at all either... his problem is that he is a pitcher, and pitchers are harder to place... but he is a clear top 10 pitcher of all time IMO...

 

[calsnowskier]

Its not personal. Its just weird. I would probably go as far to suggest that Cardinals baseball is the closest thing to a cultish fanbase that I know of. Its one team that pretty much controls a whole metro area and has multigenerational success going back a very long time. So I kinda know my opinion is already completely compromised.

Anyone involved in these threads are crazy people. On the Giants board, we all acknowledge that we are all crazy obsessive jack holes.

Being a wonk for your team is par for the course on tHoop.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Anyone involved in these threads are crazy people. On the Giants board, we all acknowledge that we are all crazy obsessive jack holes.

Being a wonk for your team is par for the course on tHoop.

especially if you claim Jeff Kent to be a top 30 nominee...

 

[calsnowskier]

especially if you claim Jeff Kent to be a top 30 nominee...

(Which I never did, btw)

Or die on the hill that Mantle or Gehrig belong as high as they were listed (Mantle at #8 is a strong enough joke to close out a Dave Chappelle comedy special)

 

[msgkings322]

Except those are already supposed to factor in the different times and replacement players. Other players with a WAR7 higher than Pujols:
Honus Wagner
Eddie Collins
Alex Rodriguez
Tris Speaker

Should they all be in the conversation now as well?

What's both difficult and fun about this is there are dozens who should be in the conversation now that we got past the god-level tier. The next 10 spots could be reasonably filled by 20 players in some order (especially including pitchers)