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calsnowskier
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I will never vote for ARod.
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POLL Top 10 poll #15: #15 player in history - Runoff
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Clayton
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This really does paint Pedro as a top 5 prime of all time across all players imo. You're for sure getting the best 5 years. Are those 5 years enough to hold off position players with 10-15 really good to great years?
Cedrique
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That's the question, Jimmy
MilkSpiller22
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again... i dont care who anyone votes for... but when you know the group is voting against someone... and you vote for them, then thats why we are gonna get Griffey at 15... if you Clemens people change your vote to RJ, we have a good chance for Griffey not to win... and i dont think anyone minds Johnson as SP#2, whether they really think that or not...
MilkSpiller22
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but even his longevity, in the 5 seasons of 200+ ERA+ 2 of them was less than 200 innings... and he only had 7 sesaons with 200+ innings... so ERA+ can not be the KING stat for pitchers... maybe combining WAR for pitchers and ERA+ would be a better quick glance...
Clayton
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Im of the opinion that its not enough to get this high. Its basically Trout (who some people have this high)
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I get it. I feel the same way about someone......
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calsnowskier
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Roger Clemens 1984 - 2007
7 CY, 1 MVP, 3 top 5 CY, 1 top 5 MVP, 3 top 10 CY, 4 top 10 MVP, 4 more season with MVP votes, 11 ASG
Bold: IP 2, ERA 7, K 5, WHIP 3, K/BB 4
354-184 W-L
4672/1580 K/BB
707/118 GS/CG
4916.2 IP
Randy Johnson 1989 - 2009
5 CY, 4 top 5 CY, 1 top 10 CY, 2 top 10 MVP, 7 more season with MVP votes, 10 ASG
Bold: IP 2, ERA 4, K 9, WHIP 3, K/BB 1
303-166 W-L
4875/1497 K/BB
603/100 GS/CG
4135.1 IP
Pedro Martinez 1992 - 2009
3 CY, 4 top 5 CY, 2 top 5 MVP, 4 more seasons with MVP votes, 8 ASG
Bold: K 3, ERA 5, WHIP 6, K/BB 4
219-100 W-L
3154/760 K/BB
409/46 GS/CG
2827.1 IP
Greg Maddux 1988 - 2008
4 CY, 5 top 5 CY, 2 top 5 MVP, 4 more seasons with MVP votes, 8 ASG, 18 GG
Bold: ERA 4, IP 5, CG 3, WHIP 4, K/BB 3
355-227 W-L
3371/999 K/BB
740/109 GS/CG
5008.1 IP
7 CY, 1 MVP, 3 top 5 CY, 1 top 5 MVP, 3 top 10 CY, 4 top 10 MVP, 4 more season with MVP votes, 11 ASG
Bold: IP 2, ERA 7, K 5, WHIP 3, K/BB 4
354-184 W-L
4672/1580 K/BB
707/118 GS/CG
4916.2 IP
Randy Johnson 1989 - 2009
5 CY, 4 top 5 CY, 1 top 10 CY, 2 top 10 MVP, 7 more season with MVP votes, 10 ASG
Bold: IP 2, ERA 4, K 9, WHIP 3, K/BB 1
303-166 W-L
4875/1497 K/BB
603/100 GS/CG
4135.1 IP
Pedro Martinez 1992 - 2009
3 CY, 4 top 5 CY, 2 top 5 MVP, 4 more seasons with MVP votes, 8 ASG
Bold: K 3, ERA 5, WHIP 6, K/BB 4
219-100 W-L
3154/760 K/BB
409/46 GS/CG
2827.1 IP
Greg Maddux 1988 - 2008
4 CY, 5 top 5 CY, 2 top 5 MVP, 4 more seasons with MVP votes, 8 ASG, 18 GG
Bold: ERA 4, IP 5, CG 3, WHIP 4, K/BB 3
355-227 W-L
3371/999 K/BB
740/109 GS/CG
5008.1 IP
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calsnowskier
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This doesn’t put ERA+ in the garbage, but it does highlight a problem with ERA and ERA+. IP CANNOT be ignored, imho. Just look at the number of outs recorded by Maddux vs the number of outs recorded by Pedro. Maddux got almost twice as many outs as Pedro.
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calsnowskier
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Mine is based on benchmarks and onfield. Yours is based on feels.
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calsnowskier
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MilkSpiller22
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yea... pedro probably had the best one or 2 seasons of the 4... but he loses to the other 4 in EVERYTHING else...
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calsnowskier
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I am still RC #1, but that analysis made a stronger case for Maddux #1 than I was expecting.
All arguments aside, though, all 4 of these guys are truly all-time great. Pedro’s IP are a big concern for me, but his number he achieved within those few IP are the greatest numbers anyone has ever produced.
All arguments aside, though, all 4 of these guys are truly all-time great. Pedro’s IP are a big concern for me, but his number he achieved within those few IP are the greatest numbers anyone has ever produced.
Clayton
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Whats crazy is that I think you could probably make an argument for Clemens as high as 6th or so. Ill admit I wasnt that high on him but we're reaching the point of absurdity in terms of him just never having the votes
MilkSpiller22
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i think i did make that argument.... i was fighting for him to be the first pitcher... i was ok with Johnson winning... but that is more because it is impossible to compare pitching... due to crazy innings pitched...
whats crazy is not even WJ is unanimous at #1 if you go to different sites... ive seen a few with Mathewson as the #1 pitcher....
MilkSpiller22
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did you mean # 6 pitcher?? yea... you can make that argument... as i think Johnson, Maddux and Pedro all had better best seasons...
but nobody can beat the length of Clemens prime... even if it was affected by steroids...
chappee11
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Pedro led the league in WHIP as many times as Randy and Clemens COMBINED in their zillion seasons of pitching? Dear lord.
Cedrique
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Yeah he's got some stuff that pops out. The WAR he achieved in less starts/IP. And I know people are down on the Win stat but it's not nothing and he has one of the highest winning percentages ever for a long time starter.
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msgkings322
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A bit surprised Maddux threw more innings than Clemens
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