POLL Top 10 poll #15: #15 player in history - Runoff

[msgkings322]

And then Wamu shows up to put Griffey in the lead lol

 

[LHG]

I like all those names, and most are already in the “rotation” while most of the others probably SHOULD be in the “rotation”.

Collins, though, is below Morgan, and really shouldn’t be considered until Morgan is off the board and Brouthers is a name I have not added yet, but probably should have been a “rotation piece” long before now.

OPS+ buckets:
180+ - Collins (0), Morgan (1)
170-179 - Collins (2), Morgan (0)
160-169 - Collins (3), Morgan (1)
150-159 - Collins (2), Morgan (2)
140-149 - Collins (3), Morgan (1)
130-139 - Collins (3), Morgan (5)

Just curious why Morgan over Collins?

 

[calsnowskier]

All 5 Griffey voters so far are people who don’t bother posting in these threads (which is fine just noting the types)

I TRY not to focus on that level of personal “attack”, but it is something that I do notice.



Not that it was an attack, I just couldn’t think of a better descriptor.

However, I do believe at least 1 of the votes is just about pure troll…

 

[eaglesnut]

Same with Rickey Henderson I guess

I like small ball, but Griffey smashing a homer is going to change a game more.

 

[calsnowskier]

I guess, today we see the risks of that though

Need to stay true to the process. The medicine to “fix” that is worse than the illness. If I start imposing my opinion in anything more than tie-breakers and rounding errors, than I wouldn’t be able to defend the poll as anything other than my own pet project to get the results I want. And that isn’t what I want.

 

[eaglesnut]

How can you both critique the time period for having fewer players to replace older players and also say that the replacements decreased the talent pool even further? There was plenty of minor league teams around at that time, they just were not controlled by MLB teams at that time.

Because it's a smaller pool overall. So it's easier to hang on. Might not apply to Tris's situation specifically, but in general you are playing with a team of A, B, C, guys back then and now you are just playing with the As.

 

[calsnowskier]

OPS+ buckets:
180+ - Collins (0), Morgan (1)
170-179 - Collins (2), Morgan (0)
160-169 - Collins (3), Morgan (1)
150-159 - Collins (2), Morgan (2)
140-149 - Collins (3), Morgan (1)
130-139 - Collins (3), Morgan (5)

Just curious why Morgan over Collins?

I did an analysis of them a few stages back (when Hornsby got his spot?). I would need to go back to that thread to see what my thinking was.

 

[calsnowskier]

I like small ball, but Griffey smashing a homer is going to change a game more.

I actually think the difference between a 2B and a HR is over rated. I made my case for that a few threads back…

 

[eaglesnut]

I actually think the difference between a 2B and a HR is over rated. I made my case for that a few threads back…

I buy that, but an actual double is better than a single and stolen base.

And a single and stolen base is better than a walk and stolen base.

 

[LHG]

Because it's a smaller pool overall. So it's easier to hang on. Might not apply to Tris's situation specifically, but in general you are playing with a team of A, B, C, guys back then and now you are just playing with the As.

How so? Fewer MLB teams would theoretically keep the pool from being more diluted.

 

[eaglesnut]

How so? Fewer MLB teams would theoretically keep the pool from being more diluted.

There are that many more people now being developed all along the way.

 

[Cedrique]

old school player longevity does not impress me much though...

What do you think about steroid era longevity?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

What do you think about steroid era longevity?

I am generally not a longevity guy at all. But yea steroid era longevity is pretty meaningless too.

But there is a difference between how long a players prime is and longevity. Longevity assumes decline.

 

[msgkings322]

However, I do believe at least 1 of the votes is just about pure troll…

Really? I don’t think anyone is trolling this process but maybe I’m naive

 

[Cedrique]

I am generally not a longevity guy at all. But yea steroid era longevity is pretty meaningless too.

So how many seasons do you generally look at when considering a player? I go back and forth on how much to consider the absolute peak and how long a peak should be and whether you should factor in other above average seasons for a guy who has a long career.
Not sure I explained that completely; I'm just trying to come up with my formula for judging players.

 

[calsnowskier]

I buy that, but an actual double is better than a single and stolen base.

And a single and stolen base is better than a walk and stolen base.

A single/SB is better than a BB/SB, sure.

I am not certain about a 2B vs a single/SB.

A double clears the bases more often than not (for a non-Giants team, at least). But how often does a single advance the runner from 1st to 3rd? Also, Jim Thome hitting a single is not the same as Vince Coleman hitting a single. Thome may get a SB through some fluke of the game, but Coleman is helping McGee get better pitches to hit.

In general, I will agree that the 2B is better than the single/SB. But that is not the case for all players. I would prefer a single from Henderson, Coleman, Brock and MAYBE Raines or Lofton.

 

[LHG]

I want to go back to the pitcher debates. Maybe this should be for the next round (if necessary, I'll repost it then). Below are the ERA+ buckets for the main pitchers that have been discussed in previous threads whom have not been enshrined yet in a ranking.

Name	200+	190-199	180-189	170-179	160-169	150-159	140-149	130-139	120-129
Grover Alexander	1​	0​	0​	1​	4​	1​	0​	1​	8​
Roger Clemens	3​	1​	0​	3​	2​	1​	2​	4​	1​
Lefty Grove	1​	0​	3​	1​	3​	2​	1​	2​	0​
Randy Johnson	0​	3​	3​	1​	0​	2​	0​	3​	1​
Greg Maddux	2​	0​	2​	1​	2​	2​	1​	0​	2​
Pedro Martinez	5​	0​	1​	0​	3​	0​	2​	0​	3​
Christy Matthewson	2​	0​	0​	0​	3​	3​	0​	3​	1​
Kid Nichols	0​	0​	0​	2​	2​	1​	1​	4​	2​
Tom Seaver	0​	1​	0​	1​	1​	0​	4​	2​	4​
Cy Young	1​	1​	0​	1​	1​	2​	4​	3​	3​

 

[calsnowskier]

Really? I don’t think anyone is trolling this process but maybe I’m naive

I could be wrong. But I am suspicious of one of them.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

So how many seasons do you generally look at when considering a player? I go back and forth on how much to consider the absolute peak and how long a peak should be and whether you should factor in other above average seasons for a guy who has a long career.
Not sure I explained that completely; I'm just trying to come up with my formula for judging players.

i rank by

short peak- top 2 seasons
Peak- top 7 seasons
HOW LONG THEIR PEAK WAS-


and by peak, i just mean best seasons... they dont have to be consecutive, although if consecutive i will give an extra "bonus",..

i dont care if a player has OK seasons vs bad seasons outside of their best seasons...

 

[eaglesnut]

A single/SB is better than a BB/SB, sure.

I am not certain about a 2B vs a single/SB.

A double clears the bases more often than not (for a non-Giants team, at least). But how often does a single advance the runner from 1st to 3rd? Also, Jim Thome hitting a single is not the same as Vince Coleman hitting a single. Thome may get a SB through some fluke of the game, but Coleman is helping McGee get better pitches to hit.

In general, I will agree that the 2B is better than the single/SB. But that is not the case for all players. I would prefer a single from Henderson, Coleman, Brock and MAYBE Raines or Lofton.

I'd rather have Rickey hit a double. 0 outs, 1 or 2. He's already at second before any pitches. Hell, he might even get to 3rd by himself.