The Seahawks have given up

[Sharkonabicycle]

I pointed out wilson cant throw or wont throw over the middle using very similar heat maps that they used in the article.

Hmm, quite a few people on this board acknowledge that Wilson struggles to pick out easy targets over the middle. I hate the 'short argument' but Wilson routinely ignores easy/simple throws.

I'm also of the opinion he's not going to succeed in Denver. Wilson was successful with a) a great run game, and b) his agility/mobility in the pocket, and c) a downfield arm and wideouts that favored that playstyle in the last couple years. He's a smart QB I'll give him that, but a lot of his tangibles are fading. I'm willing to bet by week 6-7 the NFL talking heads are going to be saying that Denver has to improve their OL.

 

[MrS]

Hmm, quite a few people on this board acknowledge that Wilson struggles to pick out easy targets over the middle.

I was told im an idiot and didnt know what I was talking about and didnt understand what the heat maps were really saying

but thats part for the course here

 

[Jikkle]

Hmm, quite a few people on this board acknowledge that Wilson struggles to pick out easy targets over the middle. I hate the 'short argument' but Wilson routinely ignores easy/simple throws.

I'm also of the opinion he's not going to succeed in Denver. Wilson was successful with a) a great run game, and b) his agility/mobility in the pocket, and c) a downfield arm and wideouts that favored that playstyle in the last couple years. He's a smart QB I'll give him that, but a lot of his tangibles are fading. I'm willing to bet by week 6-7 the NFL talking heads are going to be saying that Denver has to improve their OL.

Height definitely plays an issue and there is a reason why short QBs are very rare in the NFL. The best way to beat Wilson has always been to clog up the middle with big bodies and make sure he doesn't escape outside of the edge guys.

I could see Wilson struggling with the Broncos because Hackett is probably going to install that Shanahan/McVay type of WCO which is the same offense Wilson had no interest in executing under Waldron.

He's just not a timing rhythm QB and that's what passing with the WCO is. Hitting a guy on time and in stride and letting him gain that YAC. That's Wilson's fatal flaw in the offense because the rest of the WCO sounds good for Wilson on paper. Lots of running the ball, which leads to lots of play action, and you have a lot of bootlegs as well. But if you aren't hitting the guys on time that the play design gets the open then all that play-action and bootlegs mean little.

 

[Jikkle]

Saw this article and read much that I felt was spot on.

What Does the Seahawks’ QB Situation Signal About Their Short- and Long-term Plans?

After the Russell Wilson trade this spring, many expected Seattle to look far and wide to find its next passer. Instead, the team heads into the summer planning a QB battle between Drew Lock and Geno Smith. Are they rebuilding? Or competing for a playoff spot? Or both?

www.theringer.com

Yes, the Seahawks got worse at quarterback this offseason. When healthy, Wilson is one of the five best quarterbacks in the NFL, and I don’t see that changing in the next year. But Russ is also an outlier in that he’s been able to consistently produce like a top quarterback while using an approach that we typically associate with mediocre passers. He regularly abandons clean pockets; he drops his eyes and looks to scramble at the first sign of pressure; and he is pretty much incapable of executing dropback passing concepts because of that discomfort with bodies around him. But Wilson is also supremely accurate: He has an arm that can make any throw, and he’s one of the best playmakers we’ve ever seen. He’s so talented he can get away with breaking the rules in ways that even the best quarterbacks in the NFL can’t. And while that style of play brought Seattle a lot of wins in the past decade, it’s easy to see how calling plays for such a quarterback could be frustrating for an offensive coordinator.

Wilson is the antithesis of the “system quarterback.” He is his own system, to the point that it didn’t matter who Carroll brought in as a play-caller. Eventually everything morphed into the Russell Wilson Offense. That’s certainly how things developed in 2021 after the Seahawks hired Shane Waldron away from the Rams to install a version of Sean McVay’s offense. The thinking was that the schematic guardrails that had helped so many average quarterbacks play like stars—even Jared Goff—could elevate Wilson, while Wilson in turn could elevate the system.

But as the season progressed, the product looked more and more like the offense the Seahawks had been running for the past decade. All the hallmarks of a McVay offense—the condensed formations, the passing concepts attacking the middle of the field, the runs from under center—were slowly phased out to the point that, if you look back at some key metrics, you’d never guess that the Rams and Seahawks shared a similar philosophy last season.

The McVay offense doesn’t work if defenses aren’t forced to pack the intermediate areas of the field. No NFL passing game does, really. Deeper passes offer a higher reward but hit less often. Shorter passes have a higher rate of success but don’t offer as much bang for your buck. It’s that midrange area where you find the perfect middle ground.

But that area is mostly closed off when Wilson is at quarterback. That hasn’t prevented him from playing at a high level throughout his career. But what happens when age starts to take a toll on his physical ability? When those moon balls he’s known for start missing the mark? When outrunning pass rushers become a bit more difficult on scramble plays, or those throws on the move don’t turn into completions as frequently? Wilson is still young enough to adapt his game, but his success rate on deeper passes, scrambles, and out-of-pocket throws is already trending down, suggesting we might be witnessing the beginning of the end of this stage of Wilson’s career.
If the Russell Wilson Offense is growing less viable by the year, and last season proved that he’s incapable of playing in another system, then Carroll’s and Schneider’s decision to try something new makes a little more sense.



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I don't want to use the word overrated because people tend to believe when you say overrated you're saying it sucks when you're just saying it's not as good as people say it is.

Wilson's flaws have been glossed over for years by not everybody but many people. His offensive line and the offensive coordinators who do own a legitimate share of blame have always received too much of it. It was years ago but I recall Doug Baldwin defending Bevell and calling out the players for not executing and you know he was blaming Wilson as well because of how careful he was to word everything.

Taking a look at his performances in the playoffs he's mainly been an average QB and he owns some of those losses. And the reason I believe he's been ho-hum in the playoffs has been the flaws the article brings up because playing backyard football is only going to get you so far when you're typically playing good defenses week to week who eventually will force you to execute from the pocket at a high level to beat them. That's why I would not bet on Lamar Jackson winning a Super Bowl unless the rest of the team around him is excellent because his skill set beats up bad teams but when you're facing the upper echelon teams you're going to run into one that forces you to win by being great from the pocket.

With that said Wilson is still a top 5 QB I just don't think he can carry a team to a Super Bowl like a Mahomes or Burrow can.

 

[flyerhawk]

I don't want to use the word overrated because people tend to believe when you say overrated you're saying it sucks when you're just saying it's not as good as people say it is.

Wilson's flaws have been glossed over for years by not everybody but many people. His offensive line and the offensive coordinators who do own a legitimate share of blame have always received too much of it. It was years ago but I recall Doug Baldwin defending Bevell and calling out the players for not executing and you know he was blaming Wilson as well because of how careful he was to word everything.

Taking a look at his performances in the playoffs he's mainly been an average QB and he owns some of those losses. And the reason I believe he's been ho-hum in the playoffs has been the flaws the article brings up because playing backyard football is only going to get you so far when you're typically playing good defenses week to week who eventually will force you to execute from the pocket at a high level to beat them. That's why I would not bet on Lamar Jackson winning a Super Bowl unless the rest of the team around him is excellent because his skill set beats up bad teams but when you're facing the upper echelon teams you're going to run into one that forces you to win by being great from the pocket.

With that said Wilson is still a top 5 QB I just don't think he can carry a team to a Super Bowl like a Mahomes or Burrow can.

Well we are going to find out whether the problem with the Seahawks was Russell Wilson or Pete Carroll pretty quickly.

But I find it interesting that you use Mahomes and Burrow as your counter-examples because BOTH of them excel because of their play out of schedule. And when Mahomes line fell apart, he wasn't really able to do shit.

I do agree that the OCs have been given too much blame. I think Bevell was fine. And Schotty as well. But the gameplans will always be constrained by whatever Pete says they need to be constrained by. And for the past 4 years he has shown no indication that he realizes that the defense isn't what it was in 2013-2016 and you can't play safe offense if you defense is getting gashed.

 

[flyerhawk]

Barnwell ranks NFL offseasons from first to worst: How much better are the Broncos?

The Broncos have a franchise quarterback, while the Seahawks ... don't. Let's stack all 32 teams based on their offseason moves.

www.espn.com

So Barnwell ranks the Seahawks offseason as the worst offseason of any team. Hard to argue otherwise.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

Barnwell ranks NFL offseasons from first to worst: How much better are the Broncos?

The Broncos have a franchise quarterback, while the Seahawks ... don't. Let's stack all 32 teams based on their offseason moves.

www.espn.com

So Barnwell ranks the Seahawks offseason as the worst offseason of any team. Hard to argue otherwise.

Got to be an insider to read the article so I could not read it, but I strongly disagree that the Seahawks had the worse off season. Seems ludicrous to write that. I feel it was the best off season in a decade for the Seahawks.

 

[flyerhawk]

Got to be an insider to read the article so I could not read it, but I strongly disagree that the Seahawks had the worse off season. Seems ludicrous to write that. I feel it was the best off season in a decade for the Seahawks.

Well you think getting rid of Wilson was a good move so I could see why you thought it was a good offseason.

We have a 70 year old coach and a QB battery of replacement level QBs. We have too much talent in general and PC is too good of a coach for the team to completely shit the bed and get a top 5 pick next year. But does anyone think there is a realistic chance of this team wining more than 10 games?

So barring something truly remarkable we are going to be mired in mediocrity next year as well. Which is why Vegas has the Seahawks with one of the lowest projected win totals in the league, with only the Texans being lower.

 

[flyerhawk]

Here is what he said...

What went right: The Seahawks were able to retain underrated safety Quandre Diggs, who suffered a fractured fibula and broken ankle during the final game of the 2021 season. Diggs' three-year, $39 million deal is really a one-year, $13.5 million pact, so the Seahawks got to keep a talented player and maintain leverage if the injury prevents the 29-year-old from returning to his prior form.

Seattle also stayed put in the first round and used its first-round pick on left tackle Charles Cross, addressing one of its biggest positions of need. Some teams were wary of taking a left tackle from Mike Leach's offense after seeing Andre Dillard fail with the Eagles, but that logic has always been overly simplistic. I can remember teams passing on Aaron Rodgers in the 2005 draft over concerns that Jeff Tedford quarterbacks such as Kyle Boller and Joey Harrington hadn't lived up to expectations, and that one hasn't exactly held up years later. Cross might fail, but it won't be because he played in an Air Raid offense.

What went wrong: You've probably heard about the Russell Wilson trade by now. One week after Pete Carroll publicly said that the Seahawks had "no intention" of trading Wilson, the Seahawks sent their franchise quarterback to the Broncos for Drew Lock, Shelby Harris, Noah Fant and five draft picks, including two first-rounders. I wrote at length about this deal at the time, and I don't like it for Seattle.

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The Seahawks simply didn't get enough for a superstar in the prime of his career, and while I held out some hope that they would then go after a viable replacement under center, they're about to head into 2022 with Lock and Geno Smith as their two quarterbacks. They went from having a true superstar under center to having two replacement-level veterans and no clear path toward their next franchise passer. That's a disaster.

Beyond the Wilson deal, the Seahawks further committed toward their philosophy of a 1970s offense. Amid concerns about running back Chris Carson's future because of a neck injury, Seattle re-signed Rashaad Penny to a one-year, $5.8 million deal then used a second-round pick on Ken Walker III. As The Athletic's Ben Baldwin pointed out, the Seahawks should know how easy it is to find running backs with late-round picks, having traded one for Marshawn Lynch while using the 249th selection in 2017 to draft Carson. This team has too many needs elsewhere to continue investing meaningful cash and draft capital on tailbacks, even if those backs do end up succeeding.

Fant will replace the departed Gerald Everett in the lineup, but I was shocked to see Seattle sign fellow tight end Will Dissly to a three-year, $24 million deal. As it plays out, Dissly's deal is more like a one-year pact for $10.8 million, but that's TE1 money for a player who hasn't topped 262 receiving yards in a single season as a pro. Dissly is a solid blocker, but the Seahawks need him to be a Rob Gronkowski-level blocker to justify that sort of contract.

What they could have done differently: Well, they could have kept Wilson and fired Carroll. If the relationship between quarterback and head coach had deteriorated to the point where one had to go, Seattle made the wrong choice. Carroll has been a very good NFL coach, but he is 70 years old. The defense he helped mold into the league's best is gone, as the Seahawks fell to 21st in defensive DVOA a year ago. Carroll's choices for coordinators haven't worked out, and the unit has struggled to draft effectively for the better part of the past decade. It's tough to imagine that we'll look back in five years and feel like the Seahawks made the right choice between their head coach and quarterback.

What's left to do: Extend DK Metcalf, who was the subject of trade rumors around the draft. I wouldn't be shocked if the Seahawks did trade their star wideout, who is in the final year of his rookie deal, but I also would encourage general manager John Schneider to get a deal done. With wide receiver A.J. Brown signing a four-year, $100 million pact with the Eagles as part of his trade to Philadelphia, I would expect his former Ole Miss teammate to sign for a few million more.

---

 

[PolarVortex]

Wilson was a great QB when he had Lynch running rampant and the LoB keeping the opponent's offense off the field. What has annoyed about him in recent years is that the team always was playing from behind and the wins were usually of the comeback variety rallying in the last 20 minutes of the game. It seemed like it took him the first 2.5 quarters to figure out how the defense was playing him. And 3rd down sacks became annoyingly predictable.

Wilson's run here probably lasted a couple years too long, but late is better than never. Fans should have known when Pete dumped Hasselback that he is not too keen on aging QBs. Wilson isn't like Brady or Brees or Rodgers. He isn't going to continue to be a good/great QB in his late 30s.

 

[PolarVortex]

Well you think getting rid of Wilson was a good move so I could see why you thought it was a good offseason.

We have a 70 year old coach and a QB battery of replacement level QBs. We have too much talent in general and PC is too good of a coach for the team to completely shit the bed and get a top 5 pick next year. But does anyone think there is a realistic chance of this team wining more than 10 games?

So barring something truly remarkable we are going to be mired in mediocrity next year as well. Which is why Vegas has the Seahawks with one of the lowest projected win totals in the league, with only the Texans being lower.

I think they will give fans a tease through the first 8 games with the fairly soft schedule, but they are going to get crushed in the last 9 games. I think 7 wins is the most anyone can hope for. And if they truly are deliberately trying to tank, then this is a good season for it. Home games they should win against teams like NYJ, Atl, Carolina, NYG, might turn into adventures.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

Well you think getting rid of Wilson was a good move so I could see why you thought it was a good offseason.

We have a 70 year old coach and a QB battery of replacement level QBs. We have too much talent in general and PC is too good of a coach for the team to completely shit the bed and get a top 5 pick next year. But does anyone think there is a realistic chance of this team wining more than 10 games?

So barring something truly remarkable we are going to be mired in mediocrity next year as well. Which is why Vegas has the Seahawks with one of the lowest projected win totals in the league, with only the Texans being lower.

Yes moving Wilson for meaningful draft capitol was the right move. Yes this year we don't have good situation at QB because this wasn't the draft to find your future QB, I'm confident they'll draft their franchise QB next draft and in the meantime strengthen the roster where it's possible OL, pass rush, solid RB to go with the pieces they already have. Looks like the plan is falling in place and I like it.

 

[flyerhawk]

Yes moving Wilson for meaningful draft capitol was the right move. Yes this year we don't have good situation at QB because this wasn't the draft to find your future QB, I'm confident they'll draft their franchise QB next draft and in the meantime strengthen the roster where it's possible OL, pass rush, solid RB to go with the pieces they already have. Looks like the plan is falling in place and I like it.

Yeah I get that you have a very optimistic view that we will just draft a franchise QB next year when we have the oldest coach in NFL history manning the ship.

I think that is wildly optimistic though. And it would appear that Barnwell agrees.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

Yeah I get that you have a very optimistic view that we will just draft a franchise QB next year when we have the oldest coach in NFL history manning the ship.

I think that is wildly optimistic though. And it would appear that Barnwell agrees.

It really bugs you we got a old HC. I guess you would be down on Belichick or Reed or Arians also, damn those old geezers, how does a team have any hope with these old fellers in charge.

 

[flyerhawk]

It really bugs you we got a old HC. I guess you would be down on Belichick or Reed or Arians also, damn those old geezers, how does a team have any hope with these old fellers in charge.

It doesn't bug me at all. I have a very pragmatic view of it. Father time is undefeated not just with players but with coaches.

Bruce Arians retired. Bellechick is arguably the greatest coach of all time. Andy Reid is nearly 7 years younger than Carroll.

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

The Seahawks simply didn't get enough for a superstar in the prime of his career,

---

They couldn't. There were a handful of teams Wilson wanted to go to and the only one that could afford him plus had the draft capital was Denver.

Washington was willing to pony up 3 1st rounders (and additional picks) and Wilson said no. When a player has a no trade clause and there's basically ONE team he wants to go to... it kind of screws with your ability to sell high/negotiate. Of course Denver was going to pay a decent amount because Seattle could've just said no and Denver wants to win now.... but yah.

Had the no trade clause no existed, Seattle would've gotten WAY more. And it's pretty obvious to me Wilson wanted out. And Waldron is probably happy as hell because it was pretty obvious that especially in the second half of the season Waldron's offense was nowhere to be found. Wilson was taking over the game and doing his Wilson thing running around like a lunatic, taking unnecessary sacks by dropping back like 8 yards, abandoning clean pockets and looking to bomb it every second while the middle of the field was completely ignored. And if you watch a lot of film last year, there are guys WIDE open over the middle of the field, which is what Waldron's system does. Wilson just refuses to look in their direction unless 8 seconds has passed.

Yah he closed out the season's last few games pretty good... which were all against SHIT teams while Penny had a field day running.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

It doesn't bug me at all. I have a very pragmatic view of it. Father time is undefeated not just with players but with coaches.

Bruce Arians retired. Bellechick is arguably the greatest coach of all time. Andy Reid is nearly 7 years younger than Carroll.

Eventually father time wins, but until that happens you can be old and successful, the names I provided are examples.

 

[flyerhawk]

Eventually father time wins, but until that happens you can be old and successful, the names I provided are examples.

Sure. It's possible.

Do you think that Pete has been an effective coach the past few years? Do you think that he has shown himself to be adaptable?

You think Pete is ready to go through the frustration of a rebuild? Because everyone can talk about how rebuilds are great in the offseason but losing is grueling. Especially for coaches who are perpetually dealing questions about their decisions.

If next season is a wash that means we are hoping that not only we can draft our franchise QB next year but that he is an immediate impact player.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

Yes I think he has been an effective coach the past few years, but I felt RW was resisting changing his game ( which have some important flaws). Reading the Ringer article they hit on what I mean:

Wilson is the antithesis of the “system quarterback.” He is his own system, to the point that it didn’t matter who Carroll brought in as a play-caller. Eventually everything morphed into the Russell Wilson Offense.

I 100% agree with that take.


That’s certainly how things developed in 2021 after the Seahawks hired Shane Waldron away from the Rams to install a version of Sean McVay’s offense. The thinking was that the schematic guardrails that had helped so many average quarterbacks play like stars—even Jared Goff—could elevate Wilson, while Wilson in turn could elevate the system.

But as the season progressed, the product looked more and more like the offense the Seahawks had been running for the past decade. All the hallmarks of a McVay offense—the condensed formations, the passing concepts attacking the middle of the field, the runs from under center—were slowly phased out to the point that, if you look back at some key metrics, you’d never guess that the Rams and Seahawks shared a similar philosophy last season.

This^^^is right on the money.

The McVay offense doesn’t work if defenses aren’t forced to pack the intermediate areas of the field. No NFL passing game does, really. Deeper passes offer a higher reward but hit less often. Shorter passes have a higher rate of success but don’t offer as much bang for your buck. It’s that midrange area where you find the perfect middle ground.
But that area is mostly closed off when Wilson is at quarterback. That hasn’t prevented him from playing at a high level throughout his career. But what happens when age starts to take a toll on his physical ability? When those moon balls he’s known for start missing the mark? When outrunning pass rushers become a bit more difficult on scramble plays, or those throws on the move don’t turn into completions as frequently?

Dang it's like someone read my mine or maybe my posts here and then wrote the article. The changes made this season are the changes that needed to be made and so far it has gone beautifully. Finding the next franchise QB will be a challenge but it can be done and the Seahawks with good draft capitol in 2023 are in a good spot to make it happen.

 

[flyerhawk]

You can't play the McVay offense when your defense can't get off the field.

I guess we'll find out if the problem was Russ soon enough.