Should The NCAA Form a Separate Sub-Division For G5 Conferences?

[gpm1976]

No, you guys are the one claiming it means more than it does.

If it doesn't mean anything, then why even have a season?

 

[gpm1976]

1984 BYU?

Yup, last team outside of a major conf to win a title. Money has completely taken over, so it's unlikely we'll ever see anything like that again.

 

[4down20]

If it doesn't mean anything, then why even have a season?

So it either means National Championship or nothing?

Just "Great win to cap a great season" isn't enough?

 

[WizardHawk]

From this article, it looks like the 62 teams in the American, C-USA, MAC, MWC and Sun Belt share $81.32 million from their collective bowl tie ins... or approximately $1.3 million each. The AAC gets an additional $4 million for UCF qualifying for the G5 spot this year.

www.forbes.com/sites/kristidosh/2017/12/30/college-football-playoff-payouts-by-conference-for-2017-2018/#2d21332b2704

And if they broke off to their own conference and no longer got that bowl money, how much less would each school end up with given that a playoff would bring something in, but couldn't possibly bring in anywhere near what they get now.

The CFP is a welfare system of sorts. There is a portion of money given to those conferences with or without their members being in bowls. It isn't much, and as pointed out, their sum total as a collective isn't as high as most P5 conferences alone, but then that shouldn't be much of a surprise either.

Add in the money each makes from their OOC games against P5's and it's a substantial portion of their overall athletic budgets each year.

If OP gets his way, they still earn their OOC money as those games aren't going away, but now they lose that $81 million from not being in the CFP system anymore. Not much of a chance they bring in maybe 10% of that with a playoff system?

It would entirely break many struggling programs at that level.

 

[gpm1976]

Tell that to Jaylen Smith who went from top 5 draft pick to tumbling down draft boards and losing millions in a pointless bowl game. Same thing with Jake Butt. He was pegged as a late 1st to 2nd round pick — he blows his knee out in a meaningless bowl game and drops to the 5th round.

It isn’t ‘being a pussy’ — it is the fact, the bowl games outside the CFP mean very little and risking injury before the draft in a meaningless game doesn’t make sense.

Well, these guys made a commitment to play. To start dogging or sit out because you're afraid of injury is BS.

 

[WizardHawk]

If it doesn't mean anything, then why even have a season?

More than half of all P5's literally go in every year knowing there isn't a chance in hell they make the playoffs so none of them should bother playing? Is that really legit?

 

[Deep Creek]

And if we had a 4 team playoff before now, we know we would have had a G5 in the playoffs at least once. In 2010 TCU finished 3rd in the BCS standings and almost surely would have been at least 4th in our current committee format.

While there is a slim chance, it's still a chance. TCU had the ranking they did that year because they played and beat two ranked P5 teams that season and had a few other games against at least decent P5 and solid G5 programs.

I'm not so sure Wiz. They really didn't get credibility until the Rose Bowl win over Wisconsin. Those two P5 wins you were referring to were Oregon State and Baylor. I'm not so sure those two helped them as much as wins over Utah and San Diego State. IMO they wouldn't have been one of the four. But, we'll never know.

I saw TCU play 4 games in person that year. I think they matched up much better against Oregon and Auburn than they did Wisconsin.

 

[Deep Creek]

And if they broke off to their own conference and no longer got that bowl money, how much less would each school end up with given that a playoff would bring something in, but couldn't possibly bring in anywhere near what they get now.

The CFP is a welfare system of sorts. There is a portion of money given to those conferences with or without their members being in bowls. It isn't much, and as pointed out, their sum total as a collective isn't as high as most P5 conferences alone, but then that shouldn't be much of a surprise either.

Add in the money each makes from their OOC games against P5's and it's a substantial portion of their overall athletic budgets each year.

If OP gets his way, they still earn their OOC money as those games aren't going away, but now they lose that $81 million from not being in the CFP system anymore. Not much of a chance they bring in maybe 10% of that with a playoff system?

It would entirely break many struggling programs at that level.

IIRC, their Tier I and II media agreements are where the big disparity is. I don't think they get much at all. I'm sure they make more off the OOC contracts and bowl tie ins than they do from their TV agreement.

 

[WizardHawk]

I'm not so sure Wiz. They really didn't get credibility until the Rose Bowl win over Wisconsin. Those two P5 wins you were referring to were Oregon State and Baylor. I'm not so sure those two helped them as much as wins over Utah and San Diego State. IMO they wouldn't have been one of the four. But, we'll never know.

I saw TCU play 4 games in person that year. I think they matched up much better against Oregon and Auburn than they did Wisconsin.

They were 3rd in the BCS standings before their bowl game and while yes, there were computer elements that we do not have now, the committee does very much take similar elements into account.

I'd have to see what they were ranked in the AP/Coaches after their last regular season game, but so far we haven't seen the committee drastically change the top 5 from the major polls. Doing so to move a mid major down would create a fire storm.

Of course it's just a guess, but I'd still bet TCU would have been 4th under this system. I'd also bet we would have seen another mid major at some point whether that was Utah or Boise, but at some point they'd have been in.

 

[pitman]

As I have said before get rid of the committee and expand to six team take the five P5 conference champs and the best G5 and have a playoff

 

[WizardHawk]

IIRC, their Tier I and II media agreements are where the big disparity is. I don't think they get much at all. I'm sure they make more off the OOC contracts and bowl tie ins than they do from their TV agreement.

I wasn't talking about TV revenue, just the CFP distribution.
revenue distribution

That $81m you referenced is a payoff by the CFP given to the G5 no matter who is in what bowl. It is their version of welfare and was a small appeasement to offset taking their voices away with how they restructured the NCAA and overtook the playoff formation.

Should they get more? Maybe. I really haven't looked into it. But they get a flat guaranteed $81m on top of any extras they get for specific bowls.

If they splinter off and make their own division that's $81m gone. Right now. Today. Doesn't exist.

What do they do to replace that?

I say they can't and it would break several of those programs. Agree or disagree?

 

[gpm1976]

So it either means National Championship or nothing?

Just "Great win to cap a great season" isn't enough?

I personally don't even think NCs are that big of a deal.. at least to me anyways. I just like the idea of interesting match-ups. I'd honestly like to see them trim down the bowl schedule by a LOT. Eight teams from the BIG went to bowl games.. EIGHT!!! I think I've even seen teams w/losing records in bowl games. Take the teams who have won something or proved something that year and make some interesting match-ups. But games like Utah St -vs- NMst or Michigan -vs- SC.. they're just trying to put warm bodies on a field at that point. But I guess as long as the teams and their fans are happy what does it matter.

 

[Red_Alert]

Which of those teams again are in the playoffs this year? Right. So what's your point?

UCF didn't get screwed. This is a pure fact by any measure. All of the teams you mentioned at least played more than one slappy P5 all year. And all of the ones you mentioned had losses so they weren't worthy.




Funny you are pissing all over the place over speculative bullshit and yet have the unmitigated gall to talk about someone else 'blathering'. That's some deep bonus levels of hypocrisy there.

Fact:
One of the seasons that lead to the BCS was the never ending controversy over BYU's title in '84. It was talked about quite often in the lead up to that formation. It was a principle goal that never again should a title be handed out to an unproven unbeaten team. It is one of the foundations the entire thing was built on.

There is zero interest ever again of doing such a stupid thing. Want to call yourself champion? Beat teams that PROVE it.

What was UCF's signature win in their season that the committee should have considered strong enough to be top 5 worthy? Number of wins alone will not EVER be enough for ANYONE.

As for that human element, they too feel the pressure to put a G5 in. Had we been in a playoff system for more than a decade that pressure to bump up someone from 5 or maybe 6 would for sure weigh in at some point. I have zero doubt about that at all.

I would guess it might have pushed Boise up in one of their years, like maybe '06?

And TCU winning at then #6 Utah late in the season was a signature win that almost surely would have put them in. Where is UCF's win against a top 10 ranked team this year? I'll wait for that reply (knowing you won't answer it).

Utah was not a P5 back then. You said that TCU beat 2 ranked P5 teams which they didn't, then you claimed they had beaten "other P5 teams" as well, which they didn't. Utah finished the 'regular season' 20th, right where Memphis did.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Well, these guys made a commitment to play. To start dogging or sit out because you're afraid of injury is BS.

And they gave you their commitment for a minimum of 3 years, many of them for 4 years and some for 5 years.

The bowl game is meaningless unless you are in the CFP. Putting their health at risk when they are sitting on a winning lottery ticket is ridiculous. It is why you see more guys sitting out and I don’t blame them one bit. They gain absolutely nothing by playing in the game.

On top of that — if a player buys the insurance, I can voucher for all players, but I believe Jake Butt has to pay like 75,000 bux, out of his own pocket to insure himself against injury. So he had to take out a loan to pay for it. If they aren’t hurt, they get nothing. For ONE game.

I’d LOVE to see every guy on Michigan play in bowl games, but I have ZERO issue if one sits out. They are protecting their livelihood. The school couldn’t care less if they get hurt. It isn’t their problem.

 

[Red_Alert]

The fact is UCF beat EVERY opponent like an upper echelon P5 would have.

 

[GoldRusher]

Who were all the G5 champions this year UCF and who all else?

What would an all champion playoff this year for the G5?

 

[WizardHawk]

The fact is UCF beat EVERY opponent like an upper echelon P5 would have.

Cool. Let's just blow up the whole game and start treating beating low tier teams exactly the same as beating high level opponents.

It's never going to happen that way. Thankfully.

 

[Red_Alert]

Cool. Let's just blow up the whole game and start treating beating low tier teams exactly the same as beating high level opponents.

It's never going to happen that way. Thankfully.

You abandoning your 2010 TCU fuckery justification already?

 

[Deep Creek]

I wasn't talking about TV revenue, just the CFP distribution.
revenue distribution

That $81m you referenced is a payoff by the CFP given to the G5 no matter who is in what bowl. It is their version of welfare and was a small appeasement to offset taking their voices away with how they restructured the NCAA and overtook the playoff formation.

Should they get more? Maybe. I really haven't looked into it. But they get a flat guaranteed $81m on top of any extras they get for specific bowls.

If they splinter off and make their own division that's $81m gone. Right now. Today. Doesn't exist.

What do they do to replace that?

I say they can't and it would break several of those programs. Agree or disagree?

I knew you weren't talking about the TV revenue. That is the area the G5s are really, really lagging behind in. I think they have to consider their "entire" revenue as much as where it comes from.

I agree, several of those programs would go broke. Hell, there are also a lot of them going broke right now...even with the current revenue. Last I saw, (and that was a couple of years ago) only about 30 athletic departments operate 100% in the black and actually send money to their universities instead of needing help from them. The gap is getting larger and larger between the P5 and G5 and I don't see all of them making it much longer. But, it is their choice to stay FBS so if they want to sell the farm, so be it.

The arms race is going to bust a lot of them. Especially if those TV agreements get reduced during the next negotiations.

 

[WizardHawk]

You abandoning your 2010 TCU fuckery justification already?

Of course not. Why would I? I firmly believe it is very likely there would have been at least one G5 if this system was older and TCU was a likely candidate.

I knew you weren't talking about the TV revenue. That is the area the G5s are really, really lagging behind in. I think they have to consider their "entire" revenue as much as where it comes from.

I agree, several of those programs would go broke. Hell, there are also a lot of them going broke right now...even with the current revenue. Last I saw, (and that was a couple of years ago) only about 30 athletic departments operate 100% in the black and actually send money to their universities instead of needing help from them. The gap is getting larger and larger between the P5 and G5 and I don't see all of them making it much longer. But, it is their choice to stay FBS so if they want to sell the farm, so be it.

The arms race is going to bust a lot of them. Especially if those TV agreements get reduced during the next negotiations.

There are P5s not doing well either and they still have to keep spending our keep falling farther behind. It's not a sustainable model for a lot of schools, G5 and P5s not blue bloods.

It's my belief ESPN goes bankrupt and the whole system has to hit a reset and I don't think that's more than 5-6 years from starting. Cable is collapsing and ESPN has been in decline for several years now.