Rams Off-Topic Thread-All issues Welcome

[Rambunctious]

Isn't that completely in line with using background checks and other such regulations? Honest people with guns are not the issue; it's the ill or unstable that should be restricted. I would argue that the cabinets (or gun safes) should be locked, but other than that, legal guns owned by trustworthy people are not being challenged, maybe with the exception of owning assault rifles and the such. The 2nd amendment can't realistically be used to defend the ownership of assault rifles, in that the founding fathers had no such idea that such things would ever exist or be available to the public. Look at it this way, the 2nd amendment is just that, an adjustment to the original document of rights. No reason it can't be adjusted again (not to take guns away, just to clarify and modernize the language).

I don't think we're that far apart Shop...Like I said I don't want crazy people getting their hands on guns so background checks are definitely in order. I don't however agree with your attempt to translate the intentions of our founding fathers. For their time; they we're in favor of the private ownership of some pretty destructive weapons. Weapons destructive enough to defend against an organized army. Their words have stood the test of time, the rights we enjoy have made this nation the envy of the world so we should never diminish the importance of each and every word within the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights...without them we would be living a very different existence. You can not adjust perfection.

 

[shopson67]

I don't think we're that far apart Shop...Like I said I don't want crazy people getting their hands on guns so background checks are definitely in order. I don't however agree with your attempt to translate the intentions of our founding fathers. For their time; they we're in favor of the private ownership of some pretty destructive weapons. Weapons destructive enough to defend against an organized army. Their words have stood the test of time, the rights we enjoy have made this nation the envy of the world so we should never diminish the importance of each and every word within the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights...without them we would be living a very different existence. You can not adjust perfection.

Actually, the document is designed to be updated, that is part of that perfection. They knew things would have to change as the country grew. Times have changed well beyond the imagination of the founding fathers.

 

[Rambunctious]

The word updated suggest that the constitution is outdated. I disagree that it is in need of an update. The constitution can be amended; there have been amendments in the past but this is done very reluctantly. I don't think that the public representatives of today would ever vote to amend the 2nd amendment. That is just not going to happen so my solution of firearm education and a campaign designed to change peoples hearts is where I would look for an answer. This can be done in the home as well as the schools. We could start by hanging a copy of the Ten Commandments in every classroom. We can begin to turn away from violent movies, books, and games. We can tell our children to put down the video control and go out and play football, baseball or a pickup Basketball game. No Soccer though...lol
It won't happen overnight and there will be push back but what will happen if we do nothing? Read about Chicago and what has been going on there. It will only spread. You can take a gun away from a hater but the hater will continue to hate.

 

[BOSS429Mustang]

The word updated suggest that the constitution is outdated. I disagree that it is in need of an update. The constitution can be amended; there have been amendments in the past but this is done very reluctantly. I don't think that the public representatives of today would ever vote to amend the 2nd amendment. That is just not going to happen so my solution of firearm education and a campaign designed to change peoples hearts is where I would look for an answer. This can be done in the home as well as the schools. We could start by hanging a copy of the Ten Commandments in every classroom. We can begin to turn away from violent movies, books, and games. We can tell our children to put down the video control and go out and play football, baseball or a pickup Basketball game. No Soccer though...lol
It won't happen overnight and there will be push back but what will happen if we do nothing? Read about Chicago and what has been going on there. It will only spread. You can take a gun away from a hater but the hater will continue to hate.

Great post Rambunctious. You have this subject nailed.

 

[shopson67]

The word updated suggest that the constitution is outdated. I disagree that it is in need of an update. The constitution can be amended; there have been amendments in the past but this is done very reluctantly. I don't think that the public representatives of today would ever vote to amend the 2nd amendment. That is just not going to happen so my solution of firearm education and a campaign designed to change peoples hearts is where I would look for an answer. This can be done in the home as well as the schools. We could start by hanging a copy of the Ten Commandments in every classroom. We can begin to turn away from violent movies, books, and games. We can tell our children to put down the video control and go out and play football, baseball or a pickup Basketball game. No Soccer though...lol
It won't happen overnight and there will be push back but what will happen if we do nothing? Read about Chicago and what has been going on there. It will only spread. You can take a gun away from a hater but the hater will continue to hate.

Separation of church and state (also in the Constitution) keeps the Ten Commandments out of schools (the worship false idols part would really cause issues with other religions). #s 5-10 are universally applicable though.

The cat is out of the bag with violent entertainment unfortunately. I don't know how you could come back from that.

Parents could very easily lock away the video games, but will they? Cable TV and video games are babysitters basically, while overseeing kids playing sports requires parental time.

A lot of the violence stems from lack of upward mobility (or for some areas, livable wage at all). Raising the minimum wage to a level that someone can actually support themselves would be a great start.

 

[Caynine29]

The word updated suggest that the constitution is outdated. I disagree that it is in need of an update. The constitution can be amended; there have been amendments in the past but this is done very reluctantly. I don't think that the public representatives of today would ever vote to amend the 2nd amendment. That is just not going to happen so my solution of firearm education and a campaign designed to change peoples hearts is where I would look for an answer. This can be done in the home as well as the schools. We could start by hanging a copy of the Ten Commandments in every classroom. We can begin to turn away from violent movies, books, and games. We can tell our children to put down the video control and go out and play football, baseball or a pickup Basketball game. No Soccer though...lol
It won't happen overnight and there will be push back but what will happen if we do nothing? Read about Chicago and what has been going on there. It will only spread. You can take a gun away from a hater but the hater will continue to hate.

Ehh... this is all very utopian (well... depending on your religious beliefs, at least), but it's not an answer. You had me up until "...firearm education", then kinda lost me after that. Respectfully... posting the Ten Commandments in school is just ridiculous. I grew up on video games and Schwarze****** movies ("Predator" was my favorite ). I had an arsenal of toy guns in my closet. I even played soccer in the 5th grade.... granted, I then discovered football and and never looked back. Lol. Point is... I have never shot, or had the inclination to shoot another living thing in my life... EVER. Movies and toys and games are easy scapegoats... but ultimately, that's all they are.

Obviously, I don't believe disarming citizens is the right move at all. Making all firearms "illegal" would mean that only criminals would have them. We're simply too far gone to rid America of guns. I'm not too keen on the idea of mandatory "registration" of firearms, either. I have zero problem with required background checks, though. Even though I firmly plan on continuing to exploit it, I think the ease with which anyone can get their hands on a firearm is ridiculous. I don't know where you all live... but here in Ohio, I can simply attend one of several monthly local gun shows... walk in with cash... and walk out with a semi-automatic rifle 5 minutes later. At local FFLs a 4473 is required, but that's about it. So, figure 15 minutes if you're buying from a dealer. That's just ludicrous. The first step is not to place fruitless regulations/restrictions on them, but rather make them harder to get. Any responsible gun owner worth their salt shouldn't have any problem with waiting periods, or background checks.

Of course, any realistic person out there will tell you there isn't any magic bullet (no pun intended) for the gun issue in America. Considering the multiple tragedies across the country, I firmly believe SOME measure needs to be taken. As long as it's something that will actually address the problem and not some knee-jerk reaction that only serves to make those who don't enjoy firearms responsibly "feel better".

 

[Retroram52]

There are a boatload of laws already on the books. They just have to be enforced. Don't believe me? Go to any state and read the list or go to the Federal registry and do the research.

Eh, shopson your notion of separation of church and state is not in the Constitution as you state. That idea was a interpretive concoction of a Ivy league prfessor in the early 60's and it has been taught ever since as fact when indeed there is no factual basis anywhere in the U.S. Constitution to support that claim.

 

[ozarkram]

Agreed enforce the laws we have. You cannot legislate morality anymore than you can stop teenage boys from chasing teenage girls. I wont go into the religious aspects but I side more with Ram and Boss in those areas. Education is the key as well as a strong family influence. And something sorely lacking today common sense. Man has been killing man since the beginning. First with hands, rocks, and sticks. And now with guns. It will not end until man stops raising his hand in anger against man. Things are bad but I believe magnified by todays instant news. There have been tragedies since the beginning from the Alamo too the Titanic. But in the past it might take days, weeks, months, even years to learn the fate of the Donner party. Today everything is instant and in your face. The world and people are no crueler now than in the past. We just have easier access to it.

 

[BOSS429Mustang]

Perhaps your mentality wasn't influenced to the detriment of society by exposure to certain types of entertainment, but there is no doubt it does have an effect on many, especially young children and young adults when they are at the most impressionable age. Hollywood knows that. Why do you think there are ratings on movies. Psychiatrists and psychologists know this. It is not a secret that what you are exposed to has a huge impact on shaping your personality and character. So don't state an "all inclusive" remark that just doesn't hold up to the facts.


And Retro, you are correct. There are no laws that will prevent somebody from getting a gun if they are determined. I grew up in a very rough neighborhood. I still have some friends there that would not be considered "respectable" in all circles of society. If I want a gun, I am most certain that I could get one in a matter of 24 hours. And I'm sure its the same in any big city in this country.

 

[Retroram52]

And we are witnesses to way more of it than in the past Ozark and Boss. Traumatic stimuli sensory overload leads to desensitization which in turn cheapens life and the experience of it. We all need to step away from the amount of the images available from electronic devices that we have to regain an equilibrium that gets way out of whack in that instant world you speak of in your posts above.

 

[ozarkram]

And we are witnesses to way more of it than in the past Ozark and Boss. Traumatic stimuli sensory overload leads to desensitization which in turn cheapens life and the experience of it. We all need to step away from the amount of the images available from electronic devices that we have to regain an equilibrium that gets way out of whack in that instant world you speak of in your posts above.

Agreed Retro. In the past our population was far more rural. Doesn't change the need for personal responsibility.

 

[Retroram52]

Correct on the personal responsibility idea Ozark. In the age of entitlement, a lost concept and practice.

 

[ozarkram]

I believe we are of like mind on this subject Retro. And I enjoy your educated opinion on most things. While I don't have the insight of some I try and muddle thru.

 

[Retroram52]

Thanks. I wouldn't call it muddling. It's all good.

 

[zeke2829]

Nobody is trying to take guns away. Even in NY, there's backlash against the Safe Act, which basically just reinforces the need for background checks and bans assault weapons. I fail to see how background checks are a problem; if you have a record or aren't mentally fit, you shouldn't have a firearm. Unfortunately, the NRA frames every regulation attempt as "they're trying to take your guns away".

"The SAFE Act stops criminals and the dangerously mentally ill from buying a gun by requiring universal background checks on gun purchases, increases penalties for people who use illegal guns, mandates life in prison without parole for anyone who murders a first responder, and imposes the toughest assault weapons ban in the country. For hunters, sportsmen, and law abiding gun owners, this new law preserves and protects your right to buy, sell, keep or use your guns."
- Governor Andrew Cuomo

:ss:The Safe Act Stops criminals from buying guns?? This is the BIGGEST pile o poop that I've ever read. Hey shopson? How many criminals do you think actually tries to goe out and legally tries to buy a gun?? Can I let you in on a little secret? A criminal probably couldn't pass a background check. Get my drift?? So he will steal!!

Cuomo and Chuck Schumer would ban all guns if givin the chance. Don't tell me otherwise. Ban just assault weapons you say?? Let me ask you this shopson, what do you think his(Cuomo) list of assault weapons consist of?? Do you think that its just military style only? Let me enlighten you, he's trying to ban all semi autos! That's right, hand guns, shotguns, riffles, 22 caliber,50 cal, basically anything semi auto. Let me clarify further, he basically wants to ban just about 75% of all types on guns and magazines. He wants this to become a federal law. He also has made it law where you can turn in your neighbor for $500 if you know he is possessing an unregistered firearm. To me this isn't solving anything, nothing to do with mentally disturbed. IN fact this just gives law enforcement reason to invade/confiscate with no search warrant. Don't believe me??

New York Revives Tip Line Following Passage of Anti-gun SAFE Act

Earn $500 with Cuomo's SAFE Act; Turn in People with More Than 7 Bullets in Guns


For your information, in NY and Pa, in order to purchase a firearm you have to pass a background check on any firearm. Its even more strict with a hand gun. Its awful funny that the majority of all NYS Law Enforcement feel exactly the way I do on this. They wont enforce this unconstitutional law. Don't believe me?? This is only 1 article, trust me there are many more!

Sheriff Howard on SAFE Act: ‘I won’t enforce it’ - City & Region - The Buffalo News

 

[Rambunctious]

The cat is out of the bag with violent entertainment unfortunately. I don't know how you could come back from that.

Well I don't know Shop...I do know the farther we push God out of our society the worse things get. But I'm as guilty as the next person...I haven't seen the inside of a church in decades. So I'm not the best guy to argue this point.
You're absolutely correct to address the problem of upward mobility and it's relation to crime. The best way to deal with that I would argue is to work towards developing a robust economic atmosphere with real job growth. Dictating wages from above will only make things worse. IMO

 

[Caynine29]

The idea that "nobody trying to take guns away" is patently untrue. There are several politicians and legislators out there who'd love nothing more than a "gun-free" America. As far as the prospect of actually following through on it? Well... if what Shopson is saying is that we really 'don't have anything to worry about' as far as guns being taken away... then he's right. There's no immediate threat to our 2nd Amendment right to bear arms. There's FAR too much resistance from responsible gun owners (and yes, a few crack-pots. Lol) for a gun ban to ever actually succeed. If it were to happen, it wouldn't happen in our lifetime, at least.

I do agree with Shopson that the idea of posting the 10 Commandments in public schools is a bad idea, if only for the obvious fact that kids of varying religions attend public schools. Religion is far too subjective to be a legislative force. Even though the exact phrase "separation of church and state" is not in the constitution, it's made implicit throughout and IS, in fact, the prevailing law of the land.

As far as pop-culture's influence goes, well... I still think it's a scapegoat. You simply can't agree with the concept of "personal responsibility", then turn around and point the finger elsewhere. It kinda defeats the purpose. Blaming movies and video games etc. is just an easy way to say "I don't know", without actually saying it. I do believe that desensitization is a real thing. And while it may cause people to be more nonchalant about witnessing violence (which isn't really a good thing either, mind you), it doesn't cause people to hurt, or even kill others. Personally, I don't kill anybody because I have the mental capacity to understand that A: Killing is a bad thing, and B: There are consequences to my actions. Some people don't. Those people who DO kill, don't know (or care about) right from wrong. People who hurt and kill others are simply unhinged. Killers kill... and it doesn't take a Rambo movie to bring it out of them.

 

[zeke2829]

The word updated suggest that the constitution is outdated. I disagree that it is in need of an update. The constitution can be amended; there have been amendments in the past but this is done very reluctantly. I don't think that the public representatives of today would ever vote to amend the 2nd amendment. That is just not going to happen so my solution of firearm education and a campaign designed to change peoples hearts is where I would look for an answer. This can be done in the home as well as the schools. We could start by hanging a copy of the Ten Commandments in every classroom. We can begin to turn away from violent movies, books, and games. We can tell our children to put down the video control and go out and play football, baseball or a pickup Basketball game. No Soccer though...lol
It won't happen overnight and there will be push back but what will happen if we do nothing? Read about Chicago and what has been going on there. It will only spread. You can take a gun away from a hater but the hater will continue to hate.

right on buddy!!!

 

[Vitamike]

The idea that "nobody trying to take guns away" is patently untrue. There are several politicians and legislators out there who'd love nothing more than a "gun-free" America. As far as the prospect of actually following through on it? Well... if what Shopson is saying is that we really 'don't have anything to worry about' as far as guns being taken away... then he's right. There's no immediate threat to our 2nd Amendment right to bear arms. There's FAR too much resistance from responsible gun owners (and yes, a few crack-pots. Lol) for a gun ban to ever actually succeed. If it were to happen, it wouldn't happen in our lifetime, at least.

I do agree with Shopson that the idea of posting the 10 Commandments in public schools is a bad idea, if only for the obvious fact that kids of varying religions attend public schools. Religion is far too subjective to be a legislative force. Even though the exact phrase "separation of church and state" is not in the constitution, it's made implicit throughout and IS, in fact, the prevailing law of the land.

As far as pop-culture's influence goes, well... I still think it's a scapegoat. You simply can't agree with the concept of "personal responsibility", then turn around and point the finger elsewhere. It kinda defeats the purpose. Blaming movies and video games etc. is just an easy way to say "I don't know", without actually saying it. I do believe that desensitization is a real thing. And while it may cause people to be more nonchalant about witnessing violence (which isn't really a good thing either, mind you), it doesn't cause people to hurt, or even kill others. Personally, I don't kill anybody because I have the mental capacity to understand that A: Killing is a bad thing, and B: There are consequences to my actions. Some people don't. Those people who DO kill, don't know (or care about) right from wrong. People who hurt and kill others are simply unhinged. Killers kill... and it doesn't take a Rambo movie to bring it out of them.

This is true however we should agree what 'it' is.

• 'It's' not an absolute.
• 'It' was constructed to be governed by each individual State.
• Most importantly, 'it's' how the framer's felt about 'it'. IMO 'it' clearly is about a wall or separation as a ruling authority only and never about absolute separation.

I can say that last one because the framers demonstrated for us including in the declaration words like, Creator and God.

 

[BOSS429Mustang]

The idea that "nobody trying to take guns away" is patently untrue. There are several politicians and legislators out there who'd love nothing more than a "gun-free" America. As far as the prospect of actually following through on it? Well... if what Shopson is saying is that we really 'don't have anything to worry about' as far as guns being taken away... then he's right. There's no immediate threat to our 2nd Amendment right to bear arms. There's FAR too much resistance from responsible gun owners (and yes, a few crack-pots. Lol) for a gun ban to ever actually succeed. If it were to happen, it wouldn't happen in our lifetime, at least.

I do agree with Shopson that the idea of posting the 10 Commandments in public schools is a bad idea, if only for the obvious fact that kids of varying religions attend public schools. Religion is far too subjective to be a legislative force. Even though the exact phrase "separation of church and state" is not in the constitution, it's made implicit throughout and IS, in fact, the prevailing law of the land.

As far as pop-culture's influence goes, well... I still think it's a scapegoat. You simply can't agree with the concept of "personal responsibility", then turn around and point the finger elsewhere. It kinda defeats the purpose. Blaming movies and video games etc. is just an easy way to say "I don't know", without actually saying it. I do believe that desensitization is a real thing. And while it may cause people to be more nonchalant about witnessing violence (which isn't really a good thing either, mind you), it doesn't cause people to hurt, or even kill others. Personally, I don't kill anybody because I have the mental capacity to understand that A: Killing is a bad thing, and B: There are consequences to my actions. Some people don't. Those people who DO kill, don't know (or care about) right from wrong. People who hurt and kill others are simply unhinged. Killers kill... and it doesn't take a Rambo movie to bring it out of them.

OK, lets address the statements you made and I emboldened one at a time Caynine. First, it won't happen in our lifetime. Uh huh. Just like nobody could ever imagine homosexual marriage 40 years ago or so. Along those lines I'll bet nobody believes marrying an animal will ever become a possibility in the US either. Remember, it is legal in other countries.
The 10 Commandments are pretty much universal across all religions except Catholic, which has removed one and split another regarding the Sabbath to still total to 10. The common thread across all Christian denominations is they all preach Christ as their leader, along with his commands and is universally recognized as a religion of love, something I think we can all agree on that this world needs more of.
Pop culture's influence is a scapegoat? OK, Caynine. You're right, and all the psychology books I ever read in college were wrong. Damn, now I have to go back and tell my professor that everything he's teaching is wrong and there is a blogger on the Rams site that has set me straight. You did have one thing right though. You said I THINK, which is the operative word here, and expresses an opinion. Please, come to the table with facts for a change instead of conjecture and opinion. The FACT is that your environment and what you are exposed to does dramatically have an impact on shaping your personality. You may not believe it, and you certainly are entitled to your opinion, but make no mistake, that's all it is---your opinion. I didn't keep my books from college so I can't give you a book title or author, but I'm sure our highly educated moderator Retro can back me up and give you multiple references.
Yes, there are always going to be psychopaths in every environment that much is true. Even the Amish community have had their heinous crimes. But they are the exception, not the rule. What can we conclude from this pray tell?
As far as the killers not knowing what they are doing is wrong? Again, where exactly do you get your information from? Because it is obvious to me that it isn't from any kind of education in this particular field. Many of these people know perfectly well what is right and wrong, but they are so narcissistic and self-absorbed that they simply don't have the capacity for sympathy or empathy. They are driven by pure selfishness.