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There are very legit reasons why PLAYERS are NOT part of GM decisions.

Broncoballs

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I don't believe in the Rodgers situation that money had anything, in any way, to do with it. I think it had more to do with "hey Aaron, what do you think we need to upgrade your play and the offense as a whole". I would think they'd want to. Doesn't mean they have to do what he suggests, but enough respect to show they want to improve. I think the problem was that they not only took Love in the 1st round, they traded up for him and didn't need to. Very, very similiar to the Maddox situation with Denver, with a quality player sitting there that would have benefitted Elway and we took a player that was considered good enough for the first round.

You're discussion of Brady and overall great offenses is spot on. How many times has the #1 defense beaten the #1 offense in the SB? Give me that damn defense any day and the players that go with it.
Problem with getting any player involved is a few things.

One, they are ignorant about the cap and how it all works.

Two, the franchise essentially protects the players from public scorn. If and WHEN they make a wrong call or doesn't work out, they risk getting crushed or if a player finds out say Rodgers didn't want a certain player, how would that play in the locker if and when that player finds out Rodgers (just an example) tried to replace him?

Three, Mickey Mantle once said, "it is amazing how much we don't know about the game we have played all our lives."

Let's say you are a GM and your job is on the line. You have a keen understanding of cap ramifications. You know the player (Rodgers for example) doesn't. Now how much do you really want the player to know how the sausage is made? I honestly don't think so, cause when that player gets deeply offended by the fact that he himself is being discussed in trades, what now? You may be shocked how often STAR PLAYERS are discussed.

The Pats didn't let Brady in on what they were doing for the very reasons I discussed. If anything Brrady was treated a thousand times worse. Imagine 6 super bowls and pip squeak like McDaniels is yelling at you?

Unlike Rodgers Brady has proven that he doesn't go into a little pouty shell when his team is down. Rodgers has displayed that quite a bit actually and one reason why such a star has less 4th quarter comeback wins than Joe Flacco or Kerry Collins etc.
 

LGM

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Well, he does bother me. From the way he treats his family etc.

So, admittedly I have a biased opinion against him.

Not sure I was generalizing though when I offered specifics in regards to what championship teams consist of. Rather specific of Aaron Rodgers dubious record in the NFC Championship games.

Gave a lot of specifics and some may even think I wrote too much. Why is it we suppose passer rating and QBR were so low in all 5 of his NFC Championship games he played in?

My only comment would be to say that Elway had a dubious record in Superbowls, until he didn't. Which is worse?

Rodgers here would be a vastly improved team, and a SB favorite. Just like Manning when he got here.
 

Southieinnc

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Rodgers had a legitimate gripe with the Love pick, whether he wants to call it out as the reason or not. It was just as disrespectful as Reeve's picking Maddox. Rodgers got what he wanted in being able to leave untethered. I'd be surprised if he gives 100% to the Packers this year, were it not for the fact that he'll be conducting a 17 game interview for our Broncos. I'm pretty sure this whole "decision inclusion" thing is lipstick on the pig so the org can pretend they did everything they could to keep him and avoid total fan mutiny.

In a perfect world the only people interviewing players would be Jim Miller and Pat Kirwin. I agree that the talking heads are insufferable these days.
Welcome to the Hoop.

Can you imagine what a dick you have to be to be a player that talented that your organization can't wait to get rid of you?
 

Mingo

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This year the available really good QBs were a toss up between a sex pervert and a grand narcissus.
 

Broncoballs

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My only comment would be to say that Elway had a dubious record in Superbowls, until he didn't. Which is worse?

Rodgers here would be a vastly improved team, and a SB favorite. Just like Manning when he got here.
True, it was really great out of him from 2012, to halfway through the 2014 seasons. From that point he really became a shell of himself. It really started around that Rams game in 2014, that playoff game against the Colts was abysmal.

The entire 2015 season, including the playoff games and SB, the Broncos really won in spite of him which is the irony. The irony being that when he was most productive the Broncos defense was average to decent. Allowed Flacco to light them up in one playoff game. Ranked 19th and decimated with key injuries in the SB against the Seahawks.
 

LGM

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This year the available really good QBs were a toss up between a sex pervert and a grand narcissus.
"alleged"
 

Speardog_Atlas

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Except we didn't win the Super Bowl appeasing Manning and installing his offense. We won it when we moved over to a stronger defense to support a weakening Manning trying to play Kubiak's offense.

Rodgers may want more offensive weapons, but the greatest offense in the NFL can still fail to win the Super Bowl if the team fails to field a competitive defense. He needs to temper his expectations with this in mind.
We won the SB because we had promised Manning the world when he arrived and we delivered. How many of those great defense players would have signed with Denver is Manning wasn't the QB? Would Talib have signed with Denver with no Manning? And if you think Denver wins the SB with Brock Ozweiler at QB you are kidding yourself.
 

Broncoballs

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We won the SB because we had promised Manning the world when he arrived and we delivered. How many of those great defense players would have signed with Denver is Manning wasn't the QB? Would Talib have signed with Denver with no Manning? And if you think Denver wins the SB with Brock Ozweiler at QB you are kidding yourself.
Don't know. Broncos were 5 and 2 with Osweiler including a win against the Pats. Wouldn't have been easy but Manning didn't light anything up in the playoffs. Manning threw a horrific int in the SB. Not to mention being 1 for 14 on 3rd downs. The only offensive TD was a 4 yard drive where they got extra downs on a PI call.

Also, Manning took a rather significant pay cut going into that 2015 season that allowed the Broncos Elway to resign Talib and Ware among others.

"Peyton Manning, Denver Broncos agree on $4 million pay cut for 2015" Sources: Peyton agrees to take $4M pay cut

Tom Brady took a significant cut also in 2014 where they were able to sign players like Darrell Revis and as a result their defense was in the top 10 for the first time in close to a decade. They finally won it on a defensive play.

As I pointed out their last win in NE they won 13 to 3. And the Bucs defense kept Mahomes to 13 points.

Anyway, yes there are players that go for a ring. Mainly at the end of their careers where they aren't get paid all that much anyway, but they really aren't taking as much of a discount as people would think.

Aaron Rodgers since 2010 (only recently saying he doesn't need to sign for the max deal) kept signing for max deals. The Packers in 2011 got rid of like 7 defensive players and their defense sank into mediocrity.

Rodgers has displayed throughout his career and in the playoffs that when things aren't going well, he tends to get pouty. Hence the reason his rather shocking lack of 4th quarter comebacks that are credited to him.

There have been ex teammates that didn't have flattering things to say about him like Greg Jennings.

Yes, it would be exciting to see Rodgers come here, but I am not so certain he has this strong desire to win like Brady and Manning. Then again he may very well be motivated to stick it to the Packers the way Brady just did to Belichick.

Perception is all too often reality. Far more than actual reality.
 

gunns

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Problem with getting any player involved is a few things.

One, they are ignorant about the cap and how it all works.

Two, the franchise essentially protects the players from public scorn. If and WHEN they make a wrong call or doesn't work out, they risk getting crushed or if a player finds out say Rodgers didn't want a certain player, how would that play in the locker if and when that player finds out Rodgers (just an example) tried to replace him?

Three, Mickey Mantle once said, "it is amazing how much we don't know about the game we have played all our lives."

Let's say you are a GM and your job is on the line. You have a keen understanding of cap ramifications. You know the player (Rodgers for example) doesn't. Now how much do you really want the player to know how the sausage is made? I honestly don't think so, cause when that player gets deeply offended by the fact that he himself is being discussed in trades, what now? You may be shocked how often STAR PLAYERS are discussed.

The Pats didn't let Brady in on what they were doing for the very reasons I discussed. If anything Brrady was treated a thousand times worse. Imagine 6 super bowls and pip squeak like McDaniels is yelling at you?

Unlike Rodgers Brady has proven that he doesn't go into a little pouty shell when his team is down. Rodgers has displayed that quite a bit actually and one reason why such a star has less 4th quarter comeback wins than Joe Flacco or Kerry Collins etc.
I didn't say anything about asking a player of Rodgers caliber what would help him out and making it public. And I said they don't necessarily have to do what they say. Basically we don't know how involved or uninvolved some players are. I'm wondering where you got your info on Brady. From something he said? Yeah, I wouldn't tell the truth to the media either.

If you want to see Brady in his pouty shell there are several videos, much more public than Rodgers.......my personal favorite was the divisional playoff in Denver in 2005. I know it's not what you are talking about but it was definitely a pouty little shell. :lol:
 

Broncoballs

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I didn't say anything about asking a player of Rodgers caliber what would help him out and making it public. And I said they don't necessarily have to do what they say. Basically we don't know how involved or uninvolved some players are. I'm wondering where you got your info on Brady. From something he said? Yeah, I wouldn't tell the truth to the media either.

If you want to see Brady in his pouty shell there are several videos, much more public than Rodgers.......my personal favorite was the divisional playoff in Denver in 2005. I know it's not what you are talking about but it was definitely a pouty little shell. :lol:
Yes, Brady gets pouty, but it is different. There is a fire behind it in that he wants calls to go his way etc. Yes, it's annoying when he calls for roughing calls when someone grazes him. However it is different than what I am referring to in regards to Rodgers pouting. It may not even be the right word. I would say he becomes aloof and that is different than what Brady does. Don't think we ever saw Elway or Brady or Manning become aloof when things were down.

Although I did see and utterly dejected embarrassed look with Elway against the 49ers in XXIV. No one could blame him for that.

But, there are reasons why those QBs had reputations for 4th quarter comebacks and it precisely because they weren't aloof or despondent.

Rodgers to me resembles Jeff George in many ways with the attitude I am talking about. Rodgers is far better than George but that is the attitude I was referring to.
 

Breed

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I once talked to an old retired decorated Colonel from the Korean and Vietnam wars. I was like 16 at the time and the comment he made centered around how he did not add anything when there was a group (at this cookout I was at) talking about how things should have went when the military did things in Grenada. It was in the 80s. Anyway I asked this Colonel or commented to him on how I noticed you didn't say anything.

This is what he told me and stuck with me. He let me know that AMATEURS are ALWAYS discussing what they would do. Always. The professionals are studying LOGISTICS. He then pointed out how he could simply shut their conversation down simply by asking how they plan on feeding 5000 men three times a day? Include the method to get the food there and include cost how to protect the supply line etc. There are so many considerations when it comes to LOGISTICS and the ignorant public usually rebel against things they don't understand. He pointed out that it is the truth when it comes to nearly all issues. There are the professionals and the amateurs.

For example the PLAYERS on a team are no PROFESSIONAL ECONOMISTS and so when issues are discussed AWAY from the players ears, there are many HARD DECISIONS made. Those players would take it personally and they would also see why their friend with a family needs to be released. For the PLAYERS making those decisions (which may involve them) it would be too hard.

Hardly any of us on any of these message boards understand how the hard cap works and it's realities. We, for the most part, are fans of our team and we drown out the issues on why our favorite players will need to go.

I hear for instance Shannon Sharpe and Brandon Marshall among others crushing the Packers for not including Rodgers in the decisions. Easy to say but when or if they were educated about the economics, how the hard cap works, and what the real considerations are, I promise they would sing a different tune.

I think we would be surprised as fans on who is discussed for trades every year. I remember the jay cutler issue and the fact that he was discussed in a possible trade. Scott Pioli, the gm of the KC, played the newby McDaniels like a 3 dollar banjo and caused a real rift in Denver. Remember it was the Boston Globe that reported it and the Boston Globe had a relationship with Pioli who was with the Pats.

If the players get involved with the behind the scenes issues, they would open themselves up for mass criticism.

Aaron Rodgers wanted Randall Cobb? That was a major issue for him? Wow. If that was a thing for him then he doesn't need to be anywhere near the GM office in making decisions.

I pointed out before I think on what needs to be in place for actual championships. Here are some clues in case you all forgot.

People say it is ALL ABOUT THE QB and surrounding him with bells and whistles like WRS. Ok...here are some facts.

The Packers the one year they won it with Rodgers 11 years ago had the number 1 defense giving up 15 ppg. Charles Woodson I believe won the MVP of that SB. Since then and after Aaron Rodgers broke the Packers bank their defense has not been ranked in the top 10 until last year.

A QB in the hard cap era who is the highest paid in the league still has not won a SB.

13 times (at least) a QB has passed for 5000 yards and none of them won a SB the year they passed for 5000 yards.

Brady, won it last year but that defense gave up 13 points to the Chiefs and his 6th SB win the Pats defense gave up 3 points to the Rams. His 4th SB ring they won it on a defensive play against the Seahawks. His first SB the defense shut down the greatest show on turf.

I can list the best WRs over the last 25 years and nearly all of them have zero rings but they all cost huge money. We can credit Antonio Brown with finally getting a ring and I will bet in his mind he was a key reason. Uhh huh.

Want to compare and contrast the 2013 Broncos with the 2015 Broncos?

Two most common ingredients every single SB champion team has had are dynamic OL and or solid to devastating defense.

OLs help an offense to be balanced and to date a QB has not won a SB in a year they had 600 pass attempts.

You think players, who by and large are ignorant ABOUT A LOT can make hard decisions without getting emotions? They themselves may need to be dealt or cut.

It cannot happen. That is a book but I am hoping it enlightens some. Sick and tired of these talking heads who don't take into any consideration ALL OF THE ISSUES GMs face and how the hard cap works in a league where ignorant fans don't truly understand what it really takes to build a champion. Instead they have a Madden Football, Fantasy Football mentality.

Grinds my gears...lol.


Sorry for the book.
Rodgers was named MVP of that Super Bowl. Woodson broke his collar bone in that game and didn't play at all in the 2nd half. The Packers did have a stout defense that year though.
 

listopencil

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We won the SB because we had promised Manning the world when he arrived and we delivered. How many of those great defense players would have signed with Denver is Manning wasn't the QB? Would Talib have signed with Denver with no Manning? And if you think Denver wins the SB with Brock Ozweiler at QB you are kidding yourself.

They wouldn't have gotten there with Oz. They would have won it with just about any QB in the league.
 

Speardog_Atlas

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They wouldn't have gotten there with Oz. They would have won it with just about any QB in the league.
Wes Welker and Talib probably wouldn't have signed with Denver if Manning wasn't there. Thus Denver could not have won the SB with just any QB.
 

listopencil

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Wes Welker and Talib probably wouldn't have signed with Denver if Manning wasn't there. Thus Denver could not have won the SB with just any QB.

That's what I mean by gotten there. Heck, they weren't going to beat the Chargers in the regular season without PFM. But once they got to the SB...it was over.
 
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