We need to trade Harrison or Birdsong for a legit bat: change my mind?

[LHG]

Ray is a legit ace when healthy. JV is a solid #3.

Agree on Hicks. Roupp TBD

Ray is doing better than I thought for 2025 so I agree. On a good team, Verlander should be the 4th starter.

Roupp seems to be improving a bit but, I agree, he is TBD.

 

[sf1giantfan]

The hitting is not great. I'm not arguing there. But I do think pitching is more important and the rotation is shaky. Don't really agree that we'd be dealing from a strength right now. My thought is if we deal one of these guys, we'll be trading for a starting pitcher in July.

Why not both?

I wonder if Belt is in shape to help us out?

 

[LHG]

Why not both?

I wonder if Belt is in shape to help us out?

I wouldn't count on Belt at this point in his life. He's been out of the game for a year and a half. I doubt he is in baseball shape.

 

[calsnowskier]

Why not both?

I wonder if Belt is in shape to help us out?

Why not Bonds or Brett or McGriff?

 

[LHG]

@msgkings322 , I do have another question for you on this topic. What is, to you, a legit bat? Are we talking replacement level? A guy who is up and down but, in his career, posts a 110 OPS+? Someone who is about 20 points better than league average this year? A hitter who would immediately become one of the Giants top 2 or 3 hitters?

 

[msgkings322]

@msgkings322 , I do have another question for you on this topic. What is, to you, a legit bat? Are we talking replacement level? A guy who is up and down but, in his career, posts a 110 OPS+? Someone who is about 20 points better than league average this year? A hitter who would immediately become one of the Giants top 2 or 3 hitters?

Gotta be above replacement level obviously. I would think one of those 2 pitchers plus another decent prospect could get a 3-4 WAR type

 

[tzill]

Gotta be above replacement level obviously. I would think one of those 2 pitchers plus another decent prospect could get a 3-4 WAR type

If that "other prospect" was Eldridge, maybe.

2 WAR is starter level.
4 WAR is borderline all star.

 

[calsnowskier]

Gotta be above replacement level obviously. I would think one of those 2 pitchers plus another decent prospect could get a 3-4 WAR type

I think both of those guys are probably good enough to exchange for another top near graduation-level prospect. I have no idea who that may be, but it isn’t like we need to trade out of desperation. We would be trading a valued asset, so we should expect a valued asset in return.

 

[filosofy29]

Saw an interesting topic on robot umps. Is Bailey even a MLB’er if that happens?

 

[calsnowskier]

Saw an interesting topic on robot umps. Is Bailey even a MLB’er if that happens?

He is hardly a MLBer now.

 

[SF11704]

Gotta be above replacement level obviously. I would think one of those 2 pitchers plus another decent prospect could get a 3-4 WAR type

This approach fetches a top tier player ... but ... that assumes that we have a one player deficit. IMHO our offense issues are far beyond a one player acquisition. I would think we would immediately see the Barry Bonds and Jack Clark effect. Walk them and deal with the remaining lineup.

 

[msgkings322]

This approach fetches a top tier player ... but ... that assumes that we have a one player deficit. IMHO our offense issues are far beyond a one player acquisition. I would think we would immediately see the Barry Bonds and Jack Clark effect. Walk them and deal with the remaining lineup.

I don’t understand this critique. Don’t try to get better hitters unless you get more than one? Also, nothing wrong with a guy with .420 OBP

 

[LHG]

Gotta be above replacement level obviously. I would think one of those 2 pitchers plus another decent prospect could get a 3-4 WAR type

You are using WAR, which includes defense. Are you okay with a mediocre bat but excellent defensive value (think Pat Bailey but with an offense closer to a 86 OPS+) or are you thinking more along the lines of 3-4 oWAR?

 

[SF11704]

....I don’t understand this critique. Don’t try to get better hitters unless you get more than one? Also, nothing wrong with a guy with .420 OBP

Ok ... interesting coming from a person who has been preaching 'pitching and defense' since April. You are willing to part with our two top pitching prospects and another player for a top tier player. Let's make this interesting (from my perspective) ....... let's make the other player Eldridge and the player we get in return is ....... Aaron Judge. A Career 3.7 War. Also has the best WAR of any player in 2025. This is probably the best player in baseball at this moment.

He is now a Giant .... we move him into our current line up. IMHO I don't envision much of an offensive change at all. We have one of the worst offensive teams in baseball today (using Tzil's stats). One player is not going to change that dynamic. I think the issue is bigger than one player. We traded a lot of our future pitching for this moment .... along with a great offensive prospect .... but I don't believe we are just one player away from where we need to be. Where do we go from here?

IMHO I think we need to trade for 'offensive balance'. We don't need a superstar but we sure could use 2-3 solid offensive pieces. If we are going to trade some of our future pieces away now .... we need to really understand what we need and how best to acquire it.

As you have ALWAYS said ... our strength is in our pitching (both now and prospects) ..... it's out best 'commodity' .... we need to be very careful how we use it .... once we trade it .... there aren't any do overs ....

 

[msgkings322]

You are using WAR, which includes defense. Are you okay with a mediocre bat but excellent defensive value (think Pat Bailey but with an offense closer to a 86 OPS+) or are you thinking more along the lines of 3-4 oWAR?

Come on dude. We all know we need more hitting

 

[msgkings322]

Ok ... interesting coming from a person who has been preaching 'pitching and defense' since April. You are willing to part with our two top pitching prospects and another player for a top tier player. Let's make this interesting (from my perspective) ....... let's make the other player Eldridge and the player we get in return is ....... Aaron Judge. A Career 3.7 War. Also has the best WAR of any player in 2025. This is probably the best player in baseball at this moment.

He is now a Giant .... we move him into our current line up. IMHO I don't envision much of an offensive change at all. We have one of the worst offensive teams in baseball today (using Tzil's stats). One player is not going to change that dynamic. I think the issue is bigger than one player. We traded a lot of our future pitching for this moment .... along with a great offensive prospect .... but I don't believe we are just one player away from where we need to be. Where do we go from here?

IMHO I think we need to trade for 'offensive balance'. We don't need a superstar but we sure could use 2-3 solid offensive pieces. If we are going to trade some of our future pieces away now .... we need to really understand what we need and how best to acquire it.

As you have ALWAYS said ... our strength is in our pitching (both now and prospects) ..... it's out best 'commodity' .... we need to be very careful how we use it .... once we trade it .... there aren't any do overs ....

It’s hard having discussions when people don’t even read what I’m saying.

First I said trade one of them not both.

Second how does dealing extra pitching to get a needed bat not still mean we are emphasizing pitching and defense? No contradiction there.

Third you’ve been around long enough to know that while pitching and defense can be the foundation, you need at least average offense to compete and they are starting to show they need help

Fourth it’s hard to have a legit discussion with someone who doesn’t think adding Judge will make a difference lol

Fifth you act like we don’t routinely find and develop good pitching so there aren’t “do overs” and we can’t risk trading pitching for the hitting we never develop?

The pushback I’m getting on this is comical. The only other option is to go with what we have for hitting plus hope Jerar is a stud? Good luck with that

At least @calsnowskier is on board and he knows his stuff

 

[LHG]

Come on dude. We all know we need more hitting

I was trying to use a measurement that shows offense - OPS+. You switched to a measurement that mixes offense and defense together. I could assume that you meant a 3 WAR player who is good offensively but I wanted to make sure you didn't just want a good player, as measure by WAR, regardless of the offensive contribution level.

So, going back to your standard of measurement, are you okay with a really good bat with subpar defensive metrics? Or are you looking for a balanced player in the WAR range you gave?

For someone so nit picky on people's responses to you, you seem to like throwing out generic statements of your own.

 

[filosofy29]

I’d like to find a JHL-esque type first baseman if we’re gonna give up a good pitcher. I don’t know if they exist, cuz I only really watch the Giants games now. But, good defense, speed (can turn singles into doubles, doubles into triples, etc), can hit for average and is under 30.

If that person exists, I’m game. If it’s another meh Defense, no speed, all power guy. Meh.

 

[filosofy29]

Also, it’s easy to say we need hitting. But are there any ideas out there? The list LHG posted out there didn’t inspire much confidence. Our biggest need is 1B or C. I think that is the place to start. We have two black holes on offense almost nightly. That’s not good.

I think a lot of times the frustration comes from ambiguity. Like if we had proposals on what we’d get back and who we had to offer, that is easier to visualize, vs let’s trade some of our young guns for “hitting”.

 

[LHG]

Also, it’s easy to say we need hitting. But are there any ideas out there? The list LHG posted out there didn’t inspire much confidence. Our biggest need is 1B or C. I think that is the place to start. We have two black holes on offense almost nightly. That’s not good.

I think a lot of times the frustration comes from ambiguity. Like if we had proposals on what we’d get back and who we had to offer, that is easier to visualize, vs let’s trade some of our young guns for “hitting”.

Ryan O'Hearn is probably the only guy that is on my list who I think msg is talking about. However, he is a free agent after 2025 and is hitting way above previous years, although he was above average by 20 points both in 2023 and 2024. So the hitting may be legitimate but do we want to give up pitching for a possible half season rental? Depends on how in the thick of things the team is come July.