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There are very legit reasons why PLAYERS are NOT part of GM decisions.

Broncoballs

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I once talked to an old retired decorated Colonel from the Korean and Vietnam wars. I was like 16 at the time and the comment he made centered around how he did not add anything when there was a group (at this cookout I was at) talking about how things should have went when the military did things in Grenada. It was in the 80s. Anyway I asked this Colonel or commented to him on how I noticed you didn't say anything.

This is what he told me and stuck with me. He let me know that AMATEURS are ALWAYS discussing what they would do. Always. The professionals are studying LOGISTICS. He then pointed out how he could simply shut their conversation down simply by asking how they plan on feeding 5000 men three times a day? Include the method to get the food there and include cost how to protect the supply line etc. There are so many considerations when it comes to LOGISTICS and the ignorant public usually rebel against things they don't understand. He pointed out that it is the truth when it comes to nearly all issues. There are the professionals and the amateurs.

For example the PLAYERS on a team are no PROFESSIONAL ECONOMISTS and so when issues are discussed AWAY from the players ears, there are many HARD DECISIONS made. Those players would take it personally and they would also see why their friend with a family needs to be released. For the PLAYERS making those decisions (which may involve them) it would be too hard.

Hardly any of us on any of these message boards understand how the hard cap works and it's realities. We, for the most part, are fans of our team and we drown out the issues on why our favorite players will need to go.

I hear for instance Shannon Sharpe and Brandon Marshall among others crushing the Packers for not including Rodgers in the decisions. Easy to say but when or if they were educated about the economics, how the hard cap works, and what the real considerations are, I promise they would sing a different tune.

I think we would be surprised as fans on who is discussed for trades every year. I remember the jay cutler issue and the fact that he was discussed in a possible trade. Scott Pioli, the gm of the KC, played the newby McDaniels like a 3 dollar banjo and caused a real rift in Denver. Remember it was the Boston Globe that reported it and the Boston Globe had a relationship with Pioli who was with the Pats.

If the players get involved with the behind the scenes issues, they would open themselves up for mass criticism.

Aaron Rodgers wanted Randall Cobb? That was a major issue for him? Wow. If that was a thing for him then he doesn't need to be anywhere near the GM office in making decisions.

I pointed out before I think on what needs to be in place for actual championships. Here are some clues in case you all forgot.

People say it is ALL ABOUT THE QB and surrounding him with bells and whistles like WRS. Ok...here are some facts.

The Packers the one year they won it with Rodgers 11 years ago had the number 1 defense giving up 15 ppg. Charles Woodson I believe won the MVP of that SB. Since then and after Aaron Rodgers broke the Packers bank their defense has not been ranked in the top 10 until last year.

A QB in the hard cap era who is the highest paid in the league still has not won a SB.

13 times (at least) a QB has passed for 5000 yards and none of them won a SB the year they passed for 5000 yards.

Brady, won it last year but that defense gave up 13 points to the Chiefs and his 6th SB win the Pats defense gave up 3 points to the Rams. His 4th SB ring they won it on a defensive play against the Seahawks. His first SB the defense shut down the greatest show on turf.

I can list the best WRs over the last 25 years and nearly all of them have zero rings but they all cost huge money. We can credit Antonio Brown with finally getting a ring and I will bet in his mind he was a key reason. Uhh huh.

Want to compare and contrast the 2013 Broncos with the 2015 Broncos?

Two most common ingredients every single SB champion team has had are dynamic OL and or solid to devastating defense.

OLs help an offense to be balanced and to date a QB has not won a SB in a year they had 600 pass attempts.

You think players, who by and large are ignorant ABOUT A LOT can make hard decisions without getting emotions? They themselves may need to be dealt or cut.

It cannot happen. That is a book but I am hoping it enlightens some. Sick and tired of these talking heads who don't take into any consideration ALL OF THE ISSUES GMs face and how the hard cap works in a league where ignorant fans don't truly understand what it really takes to build a champion. Instead they have a Madden Football, Fantasy Football mentality.

Grinds my gears...lol.


Sorry for the book.
 

Samiwindr

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Rodgers had a legitimate gripe with the Love pick, whether he wants to call it out as the reason or not. It was just as disrespectful as Reeve's picking Maddox. Rodgers got what he wanted in being able to leave untethered. I'd be surprised if he gives 100% to the Packers this year, were it not for the fact that he'll be conducting a 17 game interview for our Broncos. I'm pretty sure this whole "decision inclusion" thing is lipstick on the pig so the org can pretend they did everything they could to keep him and avoid total fan mutiny.

In a perfect world the only people interviewing players would be Jim Miller and Pat Kirwin. I agree that the talking heads are insufferable these days.
 

Broncoballs

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Rodgers had a legitimate gripe with the Love pick, whether he wants to call it out as the reason or not. It was just as disrespectful as Reeve's picking Maddox. Rodgers got what he wanted in being able to leave untethered. I'd be surprised if he gives 100% to the Packers this year, were it not for the fact that he'll be conducting a 17 game interview for our Broncos. I'm pretty sure this whole "decision inclusion" thing is lipstick on the pig so the org can pretend they did everything they could to keep him and avoid total fan mutiny.

In a perfect world the only people interviewing players would be Jim Miller and Pat Kirwin. I agree that the talking heads are insufferable these days.
Don't think he does. Maddox was picked outside of the salary cap era. That is the theme of my post. Not sure you addressed it.

Aaron Rodgers is not an economist and the fact that he even brought up Randall Cobb is rather revealing. Really is.

That tells me he belongs nowhere close the the GM office and it is also for his own protection.

If an egomaniac (that is what he is) like Rodgers actually saw the truth in regards to the salary cap reality, he would see the hard decisions that need to be made and the Packers have actually done an admirable job while he has been there.

It was HIM that diminished as a player with a sourpuss attitude whenever the team fell behind and that is is the reason Rodgers has less 4th quarter comeback wins than Joe Flacco or Kerry Collins.

He is 1 and 4 in NFC Championship games and the one win he had against the great Kaleb Haney, the Packers had to overcome 2 key Rodgets ints. His QBR rating in all NFC championship games has been abysmal to say the least.

The hard cap era makes everything completely and totally different and that is the part of the LOGISTICAL REALITY you dismiss. Most likely out of ignorance which isn't a put down. Many people are ignorant about a lot. Especially the NFL hard salary cap issues.

You do dismiss it cause in your post, you didn't even address the reality of what high QB salaries do to teams.

You didn't address the FACT their only SB appearance was when their defense was tops in the league. Rodgers salary made it impossible for it it remain.

Not to mention how much ah OL costs and Rodgers brings up Randall Cobb. Makes me wonder about Berkeley education.
 

Samiwindr

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I didn't disagree with your original premise - players absolutely shouldn't be involved in critical front office decisions. Even allowing player access to GM's and owners is detrimental to a team (see WFT and Dallas). The Pack have an MVP and literal god of Wisconsin that wants to leave and they need to find a way to do that doesn't destroy the fan base. The Cobb thing was nothing more than a bone to throw at Rodgers. Everyone knows he's gone at the end of the season.

Where we obviously disagree is Rodgers worth as a player. Yes, defense and great o-lines win championships, and expensive QB's make it hard to build a complete team. That said, I'd personally much rather watch a team that almost always makes the playoffs than the one we've been forced to watch these past 5 years. I only saw 5 losing season in my entire life as a Bronco fan prior to 2016. Also, name a HOF QB that's not an egomaniac.

edit: I didn't want Rodgers in a Bronco uniform when the cost was going to be 3+ 1st round picks AND players, AND tons of money. If Lock doesn't cement himself as our starter this year, I absolutely hope we get Rodgers next year at a substantial discount over the above.

You don't have to like Rodgers, but the Pack have been spoiled for a very long time and I 100% guarantee the Jordan Love era will be short and painful for Cheesehead land.
 

Broncoballs

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I didn't disagree with your original premise - players absolutely shouldn't be involved in critical front office decisions. Even allowing player access to GM's and owners is detrimental to a team (see WFT and Dallas). The Pack have an MVP and literal god of Wisconsin that wants to leave and they need to find a way to do that doesn't destroy the fan base. The Cobb thing was nothing more than a bone to throw at Rodgers. Everyone knows he's gone at the end of the season.

Where we obviously disagree is Rodgers worth as a player. Yes, defense and great o-lines win championships, and expensive QB's make it hard to build a complete team. That said, I'd personally much rather watch a team that almost always makes the playoffs than the one we've been forced to watch these past 5 years. I only saw 5 losing season in my entire life as a Bronco fan prior to 2016. Also, name a HOF QB that's not an egomaniac.

You don't have to like Rodgers, but the Pack have been spoiled for a very long time and I 100% guarantee the Jordan Love era will be short and painful for Cheesehead land.
Let me give some more interesting facts. Brady will go down as the most defrosted QB of all time (IF not athlete) although Bill Russell and Michael Phelps could argue otherwise.

Anyway, chew on this. In Bradys first 4 seasons he was 10 and 0 in the playoffs and 3 SB rings. In none of the seasons that he won it, did he pass for 4000 yards or 30 TDs. Behind a dynamic defense and yes his great efficiency, they won them. Not in spite of Brady, but because of the defense which was held together due to Brady's lack of salary.

He then demanded and was paid large dollars. The Patriots had to dismiss several key cogs in their defense like Richard Seymour etc.

Over the next 10 years, Brady was 8 and 8 in the playoffs and despite putting up his best stats and having his best OFFENSIVE WEAPONS (Moss etc) had zero SB rings.

Then..in 2014 Brady RESTRUCTURED his contract, making him the 17th highest paid QB. Brock Osweiler TECHNICALLY made more money.

The Pats went out and signed key players like Darrell Revis etc. Look it up. The Pats have their first top 10 ranked defense in nearly a decade and the Pats win it on a DEFENSIVE PLAY.

The Packers are due for some lean years like every team. They went from one hall of famer to another and that has NEVER HAPPENED.

They are due but Aaron Rodgers is drowned in the worship of sycophants around him. He has a sourpuss attitude and always has. His talent is undeniable, but his attitude has a reason to be questioned and the Packers FO have been railroaded by a lot of ignorance.

Period
 

Speardog_Atlas

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How is Rodgers wanting to be the GM? He wanted input. Hell Peyton Manning came to Denver and they went out and signed Wes Welker to appease Manning and changed their whole offense to suit him. GB took advantage of Rodgers. In the last 10 years the only first rounder they picked for offense was the guy they picked to replace him. When Rodgers requested to have some say in matters they told him to take a hike and leave the decisions to them.

People act like Rodgers is a trouble maker. He has been with GB 16 years and they have treated him the same since he was a rookie. They showed him little respect as he carried the team. GB would be a 6-11 team with Love at QB this year. With Rodgers they are a SB favorite. Management needs to understand this or no one will ever want to play for them.
 

LGM

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I think we're all avoiding the elephant in the room.

Why do you keep taking generalized articles or stories and grinding on Rodgers? Did he run over your cat or something?
 

Stakesarehigh

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Let me give some more interesting facts. Brady will go down as the most defrosted QB of all time (IF not athlete) although Bill Russell and Michael Phelps could argue otherwise.

Anyway, chew on this. In Bradys first 4 seasons he was 10 and 0 in the playoffs and 3 SB rings. In none of the seasons that he won it, did he pass for 4000 yards or 30 TDs. Behind a dynamic defense and yes his great efficiency, they won them. Not in spite of Brady, but because of the defense which was held together due to Brady's lack of salary.

He then demanded and was paid large dollars. The Patriots had to dismiss several key cogs in their defense like Richard Seymour etc.

Over the next 10 years, Brady was 8 and 8 in the playoffs and despite putting up his best stats and having his best OFFENSIVE WEAPONS (Moss etc) had zero SB rings.

Then..in 2014 Brady RESTRUCTURED his contract, making him the 17th highest paid QB. Brock Osweiler TECHNICALLY made more money.

The Pats went out and signed key players like Darrell Revis etc. Look it up. The Pats have their first top 10 ranked defense in nearly a decade and the Pats win it on a DEFENSIVE PLAY.

The Packers are due for some lean years like every team. They went from one hall of famer to another and that has NEVER HAPPENED.

They are due but Aaron Rodgers is drowned in the worship of sycophants around him. He has a sourpuss attitude and always has. His talent is undeniable, but his attitude has a reason to be questioned and the Packers FO have been railroaded by a lot of ignorance.

Period

The 49ers went from Montana to Young. Luck also was headed for a hall type career if not for injuries. Yes it is unlikely, but not unprecedented.
 

Mingo

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I'd like to think there is a Golden Mean. If you are paying a guy $20 -$30 million a year to be your QB - and you don't take into consideration what he says he needs to be successful - you will fail. Hell - Elway joined the coup with Shanahan against HC Dan Reeves - or at least that is what Dan Reeves thinks to this day.
 

SpringStein

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I'd like to think there is a Golden Mean. If you are paying a guy $20 -$30 million a year to be your QB - and you don't take into consideration what he says he needs to be successful - you will fail. Hell - Elway joined the coup with Shanahan against HC Dan Reeves - or at least that is what Dan Reeves thinks to this day.
Only one “Mingo Saturday” post?! Now that’s disappointing.
 

Broncoballs

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I think we're all avoiding the elephant in the room.

Why do you keep taking generalized articles or stories and grinding on Rodgers? Did he run over your cat or something?
Well, he does bother me. From the way he treats his family etc.

So, admittedly I have a biased opinion against him.

Not sure I was generalizing though when I offered specifics in regards to what championship teams consist of. Rather specific of Aaron Rodgers dubious record in the NFC Championship games.

Gave a lot of specifics and some may even think I wrote too much. Why is it we suppose passer rating and QBR were so low in all 5 of his NFC Championship games he played in?
 

WalkerBoh

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Rodgers had a legitimate gripe with the Love pick, whether he wants to call it out as the reason or not. It was just as disrespectful as Reeve's picking Maddox. Rodgers got what he wanted in being able to leave untethered. I'd be surprised if he gives 100% to the Packers this year, were it not for the fact that he'll be conducting a 17 game interview for our Broncos. I'm pretty sure this whole "decision inclusion" thing is lipstick on the pig so the org can pretend they did everything they could to keep him and avoid total fan mutiny.

In a perfect world the only people interviewing players would be Jim Miller and Pat Kirwin. I agree that the talking heads are insufferable these days.
The irony here is that Rodgers was the beneficiary of the same move by GB when Rodgers was drafted.
 

WalkerBoh

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How is Rodgers wanting to be the GM? He wanted input. Hell Peyton Manning came to Denver and they went out and signed Wes Welker to appease Manning and changed their whole offense to suit him. GB took advantage of Rodgers. In the last 10 years the only first rounder they picked for offense was the guy they picked to replace him. When Rodgers requested to have some say in matters they told him to take a hike and leave the decisions to them.

People act like Rodgers is a trouble maker. He has been with GB 16 years and they have treated him the same since he was a rookie. They showed him little respect as he carried the team. GB would be a 6-11 team with Love at QB this year. With Rodgers they are a SB favorite. Management needs to understand this or no one will ever want to play for them.
Except we didn't win the Super Bowl appeasing Manning and installing his offense. We won it when we moved over to a stronger defense to support a weakening Manning trying to play Kubiak's offense.

Rodgers may want more offensive weapons, but the greatest offense in the NFL can still fail to win the Super Bowl if the team fails to field a competitive defense. He needs to temper his expectations with this in mind.
 

BigKen

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Brady won his 7th ring on team that couldn't do a thing the previous year with Winston. He got Gronk to come out of retirement and had a defense in place that could stop the run and defend the pass. Only after ownership told Arians to let Leftowich coach the offense and stay the fuck out if it. Arians doesn't have a clue about defense and couldn't screw that up. Once the offense settled down and started playing to its strength rather than Arians Bomb, Bomb, Bomb mentality, everything fell into place.

As the OP said, there has never been a Super Bowl winner that didn't have a better than average defense. Shit QBs have rings because outstanding defenses paved the road.
 

Broncoballs

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Except we didn't win the Super Bowl appeasing Manning and installing his offense. We won it when we moved over to a stronger defense to support a weakening Manning trying to play Kubiak's offense.

Rodgers may want more offensive weapons, but the greatest offense in the NFL can still fail to win the Super Bowl if the team fails to field a competitive defense. He needs to temper his expectations with this in mind.
Exactly, and Brady certainly deserves credit. However the defense is a bit overlooked. They held Mahomes to 13 points.

Much how the 49ers in the 80s always talk about Joe Montana winning those SBs behind the revolutionary west coast offense. It certainly does deserve credit, but those defenses are sort of an afterthought. They shut down Marino, shut down the Bengals and their west offense with Boomer Eisason and Obviously Elway.....ETC.

The Chargers and their pass happy dynamic offenses never made a SB due to a lack of defense and no real commitment to balance.

Marino never made another SB and that was mainly due to the crappy defenses.

The 2013 offense is technically the greatest offense ever. Only team to ever score over 600 points. Goes up against the number 1 defense and get smoked.

The 2015 Broncos offense technically the worst offense ever in a Super Bowl. Broke thr record for ineptitude going 1 for 14 on 3rd downs.

Aaaanyway, you get the point.
 

gunns

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Exactly, and Brady certainly deserves credit. However the defense is a bit overlooked. They held Mahomes to 13 points.

Much how the 49ers in the 80s always talk about Joe Montana winning those SBs behind the revolutionary west coast offense. It certainly does deserve credit, but those defenses are sort of an afterthought. They shut down Marino, shut down the Bengals and their west offense with Boomer Eisason and Obviously Elway.....ETC.

The Chargers and their pass happy dynamic offenses never made a SB due to a lack of defense and no real commitment to balance.

Marino never made another SB and that was mainly due to the crappy defenses.

The 2013 offense is technically the greatest offense ever. Only team to ever score over 600 points. Goes up against the number 1 defense and get smoked.

The 2015 Broncos offense technically the worst offense ever in a Super Bowl. Broke thr record for ineptitude going 1 for 14 on 3rd downs.

Aaaanyway, you get the point.
I don't believe in the Rodgers situation that money had anything, in any way, to do with it. I think it had more to do with "hey Aaron, what do you think we need to upgrade your play and the offense as a whole". I would think they'd want to. Doesn't mean they have to do what he suggests, but enough respect to show they want to improve. I think the problem was that they not only took Love in the 1st round, they traded up for him and didn't need to. Very, very similiar to the Maddox situation with Denver, with a quality player sitting there that would have benefitted Elway and we took a player that was considered good enough for the first round.

You're discussion of Brady and overall great offenses is spot on. How many times has the #1 defense beaten the #1 offense in the SB? Give me that damn defense any day and the players that go with it.
 
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