No rebuild- PC and Jody Allen

[HaroldSeattle]

We just saw rookie head coach Dan Campbell- not impressed, Urban Meyer didn't even make it to the end of his first season, Joe Judge, Matt Nagy, David Culley, Matt Rhule are young hires anyone see anything innovating about there offensive approach? No? Me neither. A lot of Seahawks fans seem enamored with McVay, who on the hot seat as it is SuperBowl or bust for the Rams and on the Rams team board he's referred to as "shit for brains" LOL. Shanahan is another folks seem enamored with and he is definitely on the hot seat, but likely the 49ers give him one more year to work with Trey Lance. 49ers fans aren't nearly as enamored with him as some Seahawks fans.
The whole fresh ideas thing is more myth then fact IMO. Seahawks need to revamp the running game, get that clicking again and everything else works better ( as we saw yesterday).

 

[flyerhawk]

I agree. I actually liked some of what I saw yesterday with using Eskridge as a RB.

We need a coach that will use that " Shit" more

I see a lot of folks here saying that the team is bereft of talent. I completely disagree with that claim. Let's look at the starters on the roster.

QB - Russ Top 5
RB - Carson/Penny. Effective but highly injury prone
TE - Everett- Outside of the Niner game he's been highly effective
WR - Locket/Metcalf represent one of the best pairs in the NFL. The 3rd receiver has been problematic certainly but Eskridge shows some ability as a gadget play guy and getting a solid 3rd receiver isn't hard.
LT - Brown was competent. This is one of the biggest question marks going into next season.
LG- Lewis still looks good but seems to get nicked up easy
C - This has been a problem since we traded Max Unger.
RG - Jackson has been solid.
RT - Probably need to address this spot as Shell has been injury prone and inconsistent

DT - Woods/Ford/Mone are all good solid players
DE1 - Taylor could be a Pro Bowler next year if he bulks up a bit
DE2 - This is a position that needs to be upgraded. Collier has been a bust. I would like to see Dunlap come back but he's a limited impact guy now. Hyder was whatever
OLB - Brooks has stepped up his game and shown a lot of promise. He could be a Pro Bowler as well if he can improve his zone cover instincts.
MLB - Wagner was solid but clearly getting on in age. 2nd biggest decision to make on the roster after LT
CB1 - DJ Reed has been really good
CB2 - Jones/Brown have both shown promise. We could use an upgrade but not as high a priority, IMO
FS - Diggs was really solid this year.
SS - Adams is one of the best in the game even if he wasn't worth the deal we made for him

Depth is always a problem but it's a problem for every team and it's always a matter of whether the injuries hit you where you have depth or not. We need more OL depth. Curhan showed some promise this year. But we need more.

So I disagree with those that think the team has little talent.

 

[flyerhawk]

We just saw rookie head coach Dan Campbell- not impressed, Urban Meyer didn't even make it to the end of his first season, Joe Judge, Matt Nagy, David Culley, Matt Rhule are young hires anyone see anything innovating about there offensive approach? No? Me neither. A lot of Seahawks fans seem enamored with McVay, who on the hot seat as it is SuperBowl or bust for the Rams and on the Rams team board he's referred to as "shit for brains" LOL. Shanahan is another folks seem enamored with and he is definitely on the hot seat, but likely the 49ers give him one more year to work with Trey Lance. 49ers fans aren't nearly as enamored with him as some Seahawks fans.
The whole fresh ideas thing is more myth then fact IMO. Seahawks need to revamp the running game, get that clicking again and everything else works better ( as we saw yesterday).

McVay got a Super Bowl with the Rams already. I think that Staley is doing a good job with the Chargers. Zac Taylor is doing well in Cincy. Vrabel in Tennessee. Brian Flores in Miami.

As I said, there are always risks when you change coaches and/or GMs. But we know that PC isn't going to be here in 5 years. So the question is whether we try to do a mini rebuild with Russ and a new coach or close our eyes and pray for a miracle running it back or finding a new QB.

 

[Judge Fudge]

I see a lot of folks here saying that the team is bereft of talent. I completely disagree with that claim. Let's look at the starters on the roster.

QB - Russ Top 5
RB - Carson/Penny. Effective but highly injury prone
TE - Everett- Outside of the Niner game he's been highly effective
WR - Locket/Metcalf represent one of the best pairs in the NFL. The 3rd receiver has been problematic certainly but Eskridge shows some ability as a gadget play guy and getting a solid 3rd receiver isn't hard.
LT - Brown was competent. This is one of the biggest question marks going into next season.
LG- Lewis still looks good but seems to get nicked up easy
C - This has been a problem since we traded Max Unger.
RG - Jackson has been solid.
RT - Probably need to address this spot as Shell has been injury prone and inconsistent

DT - Woods/Ford/Mone are all good solid players
DE1 - Taylor could be a Pro Bowler next year if he bulks up a bit
DE2 - This is a position that needs to be upgraded. Collier has been a bust. I would like to see Dunlap come back but he's a limited impact guy now. Hyder was whatever
OLB - Brooks has stepped up his game and shown a lot of promise. He could be a Pro Bowler as well if he can improve his zone cover instincts.
MLB - Wagner was solid but clearly getting on in age. 2nd biggest decision to make on the roster after LT
CB1 - DJ Reed has been really good
CB2 - Jones/Brown have both shown promise. We could use an upgrade but not as high a priority, IMO
FS - Diggs was really solid this year.
SS - Adams is one of the best in the game even if he wasn't worth the deal we made for him

Depth is always a problem but it's a problem for every team and it's always a matter of whether the injuries hit you where you have depth or not. We need more OL depth. Curhan showed some promise this year. But we need more.

So I disagree with those that think the team has little talent.

I'm not saying that.

What I'm saying is our issue is with "Premium Postions".

Edge, CB, RT, SS( I believe Adams is a better LB then SS)

These are positions that if your Really good, you go in the 1st round....

We need to find a way to get one and sorry to say that involves Russ

 

[DHoey]

You and I are in agreement here.

PC keeps wanting to win the way he won in the past but he's ignoring the reality on the ground. Consider the following.

We have the worst time of possession margin in the NFL
We have the worst offensive plays per game in the NFL
We have the 2nd fewest turnovers per game in the NFL
We have called the fewest 4th down offensive plays in the NFL.

These were all similar last season but not as stark.

When you have a great defense like the Hawks did from 2012-2015 then it makes sense to play conservatively and avoid risks.

When you have a suspect defense that only tightens up when the field is compressed in the red zone, you can't play that conservatively because your offense never gets in rhythm and your defense gets exhausted. This is the exact opposite of how the team played in the Super Bowl years where the running game would just pummel the defense and the other team's defense would make mistakes late.

That Pete seems incapable of recognizing any of this is the problem.

So it's either build a better defense or blow it up? Is that what people are really fighting over here?

 

[flyerhawk]

So it's either build a better defense or blow it up? Is that what people are really fighting over here?

That isn't what I'm arguing. My argument is that Pete's philosophy on defense REQUIRES a level of talent that we just don't have. Because it always allowed teams to make the underneath play and then punished the receivers for doing that.

I will say I'm absolutely baffled as to why we can't cover screens though.

 

[flyerhawk]

I'm not saying that.

What I'm saying is our issue is with "Premium Postions".

Edge, CB, RT, SS( I believe Adams is a better LB then SS)

These are positions that if your Really good, you go in the 1st round....

We need to find a way to get one and sorry to say that involves Russ

It doesn't matter whether you have elite players at DE, CD, OT, and safety if you have a shitty QB or even a league average QB.

Even if we assumed that we were going to hit on every pick we got for Russ it wouldn't matter unless he struck gold at QB.

 

[DHoey]

That isn't what I'm arguing. My argument is that Pete's philosophy on defense REQUIRES a level of talent that we just don't have. Because it always allowed teams to make the underneath play and then punished the receivers for doing that.

I will say I'm absolutely baffled as to why we can't cover screens though.

We can't cover screens because we are soooo thirsty for QB pressure, they just can't help themselves when they actually get past a O-lineman.

 

[Judge Fudge]

It doesn't matter whether you have elite players at DE, CD, OT, and safety if you have a shitty QB or even a league average QB.

Even if we assumed that we were going to hit on every pick we got for Russ it wouldn't matter unless he struck gold at QB.

That is a valid point.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

QB - Russ Top 5
RB - Carson/Penny. Effective but highly injury prone Both likely gone next season
TE - Everett- Outside of the Niner game he's been highly effective He's been OK 4 games of over 50 yards the other 12 games under 50 and only 4 TDs
WR - Locket/Metcalf represent one of the best pairs in the NFL. The 3rd receiver has been problematic certainly but Eskridge shows some ability as a gadget play guy and getting a solid 3rd receiver isn't hard. Seahawks are good here
LT - Brown was competent. This is one of the biggest question marks going into next season. Going to be gone next season for cap space
LG- Lewis still looks good but seems to get nicked up easy OK but certainly not special
C - This has been a problem since we traded Max Unger. Yup
RG - Jackson has been solid. Bright spot
RT - Probably need to address this spot as Shell has been injury prone and inconsistent Yes

DT - Woods/Ford/Mone are all good solid players Woods free Agent, Ford I like , note that his salary goes from 2.6 mill to 9.6 and if let go saves 4.8 mill Mone free agent
DE1 - Taylor could be a Pro Bowler next year if he bulks up a bit He brings hope
DE2 - This is a position that needs to be upgraded. Collier has been a bust. I would like to see Dunlap come back but he's a limited impact guy now. Hyder was whatever Dunlap 33 in February and salary goes up from 2.9 to 6.5, cap savings 5.6 mill if released The rest are whatever
OLB - Brooks has stepped up his game and shown a lot of promise. He could be a Pro Bowler as well if he can improve his zone cover instincts. I like him
MLB - Wagner was solid but clearly getting on in age. 2nd biggest decision to make on the roster after LT Almost certain not to be on the team
CB1 - DJ Reed has been really good Best of a weak group and a free agent. Likely be hard to resign
CB2 - Jones/Brown have both shown promise. We could use an upgrade but not as high a priority, IMO Yes a upgraded is needed
FS - Diggs was really solid this year. He's been good but 2022 is a void year and he'll cost a good bit to resign IDK if the Seahawks can afford him
SS - Adams is one of the best in the game even if he wasn't worth the deal we made for him He'll need to rebound as this season he was a weak link

Depth is always a problem but it's a problem for every team and it's always a matter of whether the injuries hit you where you have depth or not. We need more OL depth. Curhan showed some promise this year. But we need more. No depth and not enough cap space wil down grade what we do have

So I disagree with those that think the team has little talent. Going to agree to disagree, many of those you feel are solid will be FAs, many you feel are solid are just adequate. Once Wagner is gone there will not be a single stud on defense unless someone steps up there game. Some of the solid players are facing being cap causalities as the Seahawks need to find more cap space

 

[MrS]

You and I are in agreement here.

PC keeps wanting to win the way he won in the past but he's ignoring the reality on the ground. Consider the following.

We have the worst time of possession margin in the NFL
We have the worst offensive plays per game in the NFL
We have the 2nd fewest turnovers per game in the NFL
We have called the fewest 4th down offensive plays in the NFL.

These were all similar last season but not as stark.

When you have a great defense like the Hawks did from 2012-2015 then it makes sense to play conservatively and avoid risks.

When you have a suspect defense that only tightens up when the field is compressed in the red zone, you can't play that conservatively because your offense never gets in rhythm and your defense gets exhausted. This is the exact opposite of how the team played in the Super Bowl years where the running game would just pummel the defense and the other team's defense would make mistakes late.

That Pete seems incapable of recognizing any of this is the problem.

the blue print can still work. its a system that requires certain types of guys and they got away from that, they didnt draft or sign the right players to replace the guys we lost.

It doesn't matter whether you have elite players at DE, CD, OT, and safety if you have a shitty QB or even a league average QB.

Even if we assumed that we were going to hit on every pick we got for Russ it wouldn't matter unless he struck gold at QB.

we did it in 2012-2014 with wilson playing as a game manager/adhoc running back. we could find a QB with a similar skill set to build around. frankly with the offense on his shoulders, wilson hasnt been all that good.

alternatively, he can go back to being a game manager and take a pay cut. but we know thats not going to happen.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

McVay got a Super Bowl with the Rams already. I think that Staley is doing a good job with the Chargers. Zac Taylor is doing well in Cincy. Vrabel in Tennessee. Brian Flores in Miami.

As I said, there are always risks when you change coaches and/or GMs. But we know that PC isn't going to be here in 5 years. So the question is whether we try to do a mini rebuild with Russ and a new coach or close our eyes and pray for a miracle running it back or finding a new QB.

McVay got to a Super Bowl ( mostly thanks to the refs) but he has to strike gold this year or next or he'll be gone as he has mortgage the future like no other. As for the ones that have success.....not innovating offense, just good old fashion football. It takes a talented roster otherwise the team is going to stink regardless of who is coaching.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

the blue print can still work. its a system that requires certain types of guys and they got away from that, they didnt draft or sign the right players to replace the guys we lost.

Yup the " let Russell cook " theme definitely got the team away from their roots and what made Pete system work. Need to get back to what actually works.

 

[JMR]

Yup the " let Russell cook " theme definitely got the team away from their roots and what made Pete system work. Need to get back to what actually works.

I think we started on that path as soon as we traded Max Unger for Jimmy Graham. That move was absolutely contrary to the stated philosophy of what this team was supposed to be about. However, I'll still argue Graham was a good/productive player here: 170 catches for 2048 yards & 18 TDs in 3 seasons. That is the best 3 year stretch for a TE in the history of the franchise, but it was the wrong kind of player for what Pete tells us he likes to do on offense.

 

[flyerhawk]

the blue print can still work. its a system that requires certain types of guys and they got away from that, they didnt draft or sign the right players to replace the guys we lost.

yeah if only they kept drafting Hall of Fame corners in the 5th round, we wouldn't be where we are today.

we did it in 2012-2014 with wilson playing as a game manager/adhoc running back. we could find a QB with a similar skill set to build around. frankly with the offense on his shoulders, wilson hasnt been all that good.

alternatively, he can go back to being a game manager and take a pay cut. but we know thats not going to happen.

The Seahawks 2012-2014 defense was an historically great defense. Comparable to the 70s Steelers and late 90s Ravens. So, sure, all we need to do is get back to having that defense and then we don't need a great QB.

 

[flyerhawk]

So I disagree with those that think the team has little talent. Going to agree to disagree, many of those you feel are solid will be FAs, many you feel are solid are just adequate. Once Wagner is gone there will not be a single stud on defense unless someone steps up there game. Some of the solid players are facing being cap causalities as the Seahawks need to find more cap space

Just curious but what teams in the NFL do you think are NOT facing similar challenges in the offseason? Specifically which GOOD teams aren't facing the same challenges?

 

[flyerhawk]

McVay got to a Super Bowl ( mostly thanks to the refs) but he has to strike gold this year or next or he'll be gone as he has mortgage the future like no other. As for the ones that have success.....not innovating offense, just good old fashion football. It takes a talented roster otherwise the team is going to stink regardless of who is coaching.

So is it about the coaches or about the talent? You seem to be going back and forth on that.

If we don't win the Super Bowl in 2013, which easily could have happened, the Carroll would be long gone. Being an NFL head coach is about results.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

So is it about the coaches or about the talent? You seem to be going back and forth on that.

If we don't win the Super Bowl in 2013, which easily could have happened, the Carroll would be long gone. Being an NFL head coach is about results.

A team needs both. A roster that has been bleeding talent because players sign elsewhere for the money and draft picks are traded away in a attempt to stay relevant are going to get to a point where a reboot has to happen with the roster. Seahawks are arguably at that point.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

Just curious but what teams in the NFL do you think are NOT facing similar challenges in the offseason? Specifically which GOOD teams aren't facing the same challenges?

I'd rather not expand the argument to the entire league (anymore then it has) as it would just derail the subject at hand. I will point out the Pats did do a reboot and let Brady walk and now are back to being contenders. That is sort of what I would like to see the Seahawks do.

 

[flyerhawk]

I'd rather not expand the argument to the entire league 9anymore then it has) as it would just derail the subject at hand. I will point out the Pats did do a reboot and let Brady walk and now are back to being contenders. That is sort of what I would like to see the Seahawks do.

The Patriots have 2 players that made a Pro Bowl this year. And only one of them was home grown. Bellicheck is best head coach in football history. And he is the best in large part because he always adjusts his gameplans to fit his team.