No rebuild- PC and Jody Allen

[Screamin12th]

If Taylor is a future Probowler then I guess that means so is Green who was tied for the team lead in sacks with very rarely used Dunlap. Our CB's are at BEST 2nd and 3rd stringers and their back ups are practice squad at best players, i saw to many people praising Brown as the "Real Deal" in a year he played a few games and looked average at best which is great on "this" team. The Defensive front was anemic at getting pressure ( 31st in the NFL for Pressure percentage ) and was giving up the 2nd most passing yards in the NFL and the longest time in the pocket, they did not even face that many good QB's but a handful of 2nd stringers and just got ate up by them.

We have ZERO running game because Penny is a mirage and will vanish soon. Carson is not a "FoH" running back if he had stayed healthy like someone else said. No, he is good but he is not a HoF running back lol.

They need Oline help but the UDFA rookie that played RT Sunday had one of those shall we said blind side blocks where he just drove his guy 20 yard down the field lol. Adams is NOT the best Safety in the game he is not even top 15, how people still believe he is something special is beyond me. His stats were propped up by being the best guy on a REAL bad jets team. Everett isn't anything special he is a stronger Hollister not better. Dissly's averages/production looks better for me if he got more chances. The biggest issue is we got some talented players but after them we got a bunch of baggers playing football.

What killed this team is the lack of depth and talent after their "stars" of the team.

 

[flyerhawk]

If Taylor is a future Probowler then I guess that means so is Green who was tied for the team lead in sacks with very rarely used Dunlap. Our CB's are at BEST 2nd and 3rd stringers and their back ups are practice squad at best players, i saw to many people praising Brown as the "Real Deal" in a year he played a few games and looked average at best which is great on "this" team. The Defensive front was anemic at getting pressure ( 31st in the NFL for Pressure percentage ) and was giving up the 2nd most passing yards in the NFL and the longest time in the pocket, they did not even face that many good QB's but a handful of 2nd stringers and just got ate up by them.

Rasheem Green has been in the league for 3 years. Darrell Taylor is essentially a rookie after missing last season due to injury. Darrell Taylor had 500 snaps this year. Dunlap had 438.

No one is suggesting that the defense was good this year. This has been stated MANY times. Lots of things need to be done to improve on.

Reed has been a legitimate starting caliber corner this season. Jones has been a considerable upgrade over Flowers. As a first year starter he showed reason to believe he could be a productive player. Same with Brown although with fewer snaps.

We have ZERO running game because Penny is a mirage and will vanish soon. Carson is not a "FoH" running back if he had stayed healthy like someone else said. No, he is good but he is not a HoF running back lol.

I don't recall anyone saying he was a HoF caliber RB. He's good but health limits him too much. Penny can't be relied on but he is a good RB. If he can be brought back and stay somewhat healthy then he can be useful even if we can't expect him to be what he has been the last month.

They need Oline help but the UDFA rookie that played RT Sunday had one of those shall we said blind side blocks where he just drove his guy 20 yard down the field lol. Adams is NOT the best Safety in the game he is not even top 15, how people still believe he is something special is beyond me. His stats were propped up by being the best guy on a REAL bad jets team. Everett isn't anything special he is a stronger Hollister not better. Dissly's averages/production looks better for me if he got more chances. The biggest issue is we got some talented players but after them we got a bunch of baggers playing football.

What killed this team is the lack of depth and talent after their "stars" of the team.

Yes. The team needs more depth. But that can be achieved in FA. They need to do a better job of targeting OL and DL FAs. They will have more flexibility this year, cap wise, so I think they could make some moves.

 

[MrS]

Yes. They got lucky. Just like other teams get lucky. Which is why successful teams don't rely on drafting great players.

you have gone on and on about how great players, especially at QB, equals winning. so what is it? are good teams just lucky or do they do something else? like, oh I dont know, drafting to fit the scheme? have the seahawks just been lucky from day 1 with carroll or did they take guys that fit the scheme?

I can't believe they didn't draft Derrick Henry.

nick chubb was there, he was a drastically better fit and has had a drastically better career so far.

This is complete nonsense. Every running back needs good run blocking to be productive. RBs who get hit behind the line regularly are never productive. RBs who constantly seek contact, constantly get hurt.

so you arent denying he is a soft finesse back, you are just denying that its contrary to the state team philosophy?

If only they had you and your hindisght they could have drafted so much better.

its not hindsight when you call it out on draft day.

But don't worry, once they fire everyone and get rid of Wilson they will bring in guys that will hit on all their draft picks and sign only great players.

whoever comes in wont trade away first rounds like they have aids.

Yes. The team needs more depth. But that can be achieved in FA. They need to do a better job of targeting OL and DL FAs. They will have more flexibility this year, cap wise, so I think they could make some moves.

you trust these guys to target OL and DL? how is collier doing?

 

[flyerhawk]

you have gone on and on about how great players, especially at QB, equals winning. so what is it? are good teams just lucky or do they do something else? like, oh I dont know, drafting to fit the scheme? have the seahawks just been lucky from day 1 with carroll or did they take guys that fit the scheme?

Good teams consistently have 2 things. Good coaches and great QBs. The Seahawks had a good coach that was mired in average performance until they drafted a Hall of Fame level QB in the 3rd round of the 2012 draft. Carroll also was able to leverage his knowledge of players coming out of college from his USC days as he recruited a bunch of these players so he had a lot of insight that other NFL coaches may not have.

nick chubb was there, he was a drastically better fit and has had a drastically better career so far.

Nick Chubb has stayed healthy. No question about that. Like I said, hindsight is wonderful.

so you arent denying he is a soft finesse back, you are just denying that its contrary to the state team philosophy?

I'm not interested in dumb arguments like "soft finesse" back. The truth is that this running game was complete trash when Carson went down and Penny was out. Penny comes back and has the most yards in the NFL since his return. Did our OL magically turn into an elite run blocking unit just as Penny returned?

its not hindsight when you call it out on draft day.

Yes yes. You are always right on your draft choices. That's the great thing about being a fan. You never have to worry about being accountable for your choices.

whoever comes in wont trade away first rounds like they have aids.

you trust these guys to target OL and DL? how is collier doing?

You don't trust them to do anything and think the Seahawks have been mediocre for the last 7 years. You are not a rational person.

 

[MrS]

Good teams consistently have 2 things. Good coaches and great QBs. The Seahawks had a good coach that was mired in average performance until they drafted a Hall of Fame level QB in the 3rd round of the 2012 draft. Carroll also was able to leverage his knowledge of players coming out of college from his USC days as he recruited a bunch of these players so he had a lot of insight that other NFL coaches may not have.

wait i thought it was all the luck drafting HoF defenders, or did the defense step up because we had a better qb on the field?

Nick Chubb has stayed healthy. No question about that. Like I said, hindsight is wonderful.

he was the guy I wanted, its not hindsight.

I'm not interested in dumb arguments like "soft finesse" back. The truth is that this running game was complete trash when Carson went down and Penny was out. Penny comes back and has the most yards in the NFL since his return. Did our OL magically turn into an elite run blocking unit just as Penny returned?

he had good games against absolute trash defenses, houston(32), chicago(24), detroit(30). 11 carries 39 yards against the rams(6). lets give him an extension.

Yes yes. You are always right on your draft choices. That's the great thing about being a fan. You never have to worry about being accountable for your choices.

I have an opinion at least, instead of worshipping at the teams altar no matter how bad their picks are only to change my mind years down the road.

You don't trust them to do anything and think the Seahawks have been mediocre for the last 7 years. You are not a rational person.

why would anyone trust draft picks, especially 1st rounders, with them? they might end up trading them away for overrated players at less important positions.

 

[flyerhawk]

wait i thought it was all the luck drafting HoF defenders, or did the defense step up because we had a better qb on the field?

Yes it is mostly luck drafting Hall of Fame defenders. Otherwise Richard Sherman wouldn't have been a 5th round pick. Bobby Wagner wouldn't have been a 2nd round pick. Would the Seahawks have won a Super Bowl with Matt Flynn or Tavaris Jackson as the QB? Yes or not.

he was the guy I wanted, its not hindsight.

And of course you knew that Penny would be constantly injured. Like I said, it's easy for fans to Monday Morning QB drafts.

he had good games against absolute trash defenses, houston(32), chicago(24), detroit(30). 11 carries 39 yards against the rams(6). lets give him an extension.

So against the Rams he averaged near 3.5 yards per carry and that was his worst game? Why NOT give him extension if the price is right? If you think that Penny was the same as Alex Collins then I question whether you even watch the games.

I have an opinion at least, instead of worshipping at the teams altar no matter how bad their picks are only to change my mind years down the road.

Yes. You are always demanding that we fire coaches. That's your primary opinion. Now that most of us agree with you, of course, you now want to get rid of Wilson. I suspect if we all agreed with getting rid of Wilson you would want to get rid of every other competent player on the team.

why would anyone trust draft picks, especially 1st rounders, with them? they might end up trading them away for overrated players at less important positions.

Tell us again how this team has been mediocre for the past 7 years.

 

[MrS]

Yes it is mostly luck drafting Hall of Fame defenders. Otherwise Richard Sherman wouldn't have been a 5th round pick. Bobby Wagner wouldn't have been a 2nd round pick. Would the Seahawks have won a Super Bowl with Matt Flynn or Tavaris Jackson as the QB? Yes or not.

the defense won that SB, wilson threw the pick that lost us the next one.

And of course you knew that Penny would be constantly injured. Like I said, it's easy for fans to Monday Morning QB drafts.

I knew he wasnt worth a 1st round pick

So against the Rams he averaged near 3.5 yards per carry and that was his worst game? Why NOT give him extension if the price is right? If you think that Penny was the same as Alex Collins then I question whether you even watch the games.

because he is an injury waiting to happen. ill be here saying I told you so yet again.

Yes. You are always demanding that we fire coaches. That's your primary opinion. Now that most of us agree with you, of course, you now want to get rid of Wilson. I suspect if we all agreed with getting rid of Wilson you would want to get rid of every other competent player on the team.

now its you demanding we fire coaches. see how it works? I make a statement, everyone hates it, then down the road they end up agreeing with me. even you.

Tell us again how this team has been mediocre for the past 7 years.

havent advanced past the divisional round since 2014, the playoff games we did win were against teddy bridgewater, the lions, and a 40 year old josh mccown. if that satisfies you then by all means be happy.

 

[flyerhawk]

the defense won that SB, wilson threw the pick that lost us the next one.

Right. Wilson is the problem. Got it.

I knew he wasnt worth a 1st round pick

Of course you did. I'm sure you knew that Sony Michele wasn't worth a 1st round pick as well. Because you know the draft better than the NFL teams do.

because he is an injury waiting to happen. ill be here saying I told you so yet again.

That you think there is NO price he is worth bringing back tells me that it is more about your ego than objective evaluation.

now its you demanding we fire coaches. see how it works? I make a statement, everyone hates it, then down the road they end up agreeing with me. even you.

You constantly whined about how we needed to fire Bevell. We fired Bevell and.. you wanted to fire Schottenheimer. Now you want to fire Waldron. And Carroll. And Norton. And dump Wilson.

havent advanced past the divisional round since 2014, the playoff games we did win were against teddy bridgewater, the lions, and a 40 year old josh mccown. if that satisfies you then by all means be happy.

I want us to win Super Bowls. I recognize that is difficult to do. And I think that it is time for the team to move on from Pete because we haven't been able to move on.

But I also know that teams that blow things up every few years NEVER get out of that vicious cycle.

 

[jerseyhawksfan79]

if schneider has no control and isnt allowed to make any decisions, what reason do we have to keep him around? just to take a chance and hope he can do better without carroll?

schneider is tainted by terrible drafting and personnel moves, especially the adams trade. that trade alone should be a career killer.

Like I said, JS may not have final say on players drafted, signings or trades. He needs to have full control for me to properly evaluate JS as a GM. Even if we switched out the GM, we could be getting back a worse GM. Just look around the league, there aren't many good GMs.

 

[jerseyhawksfan79]

I would say that PC/JS have been chasing championships the past few years and they went away from their draft board accumulation and tried to trade for big home runs like Adams and Richardson and Clowney. They were running the team like they were on a timer.

True, they needed to turn that page a year ago and get back to building the team back up.

 

[flyerhawk]

True, they needed to turn that page a year ago and get back to building the team back up.

The Jamal Adams trade was a bad trade. It was made in desperation because they failed to address the defensive line and then let Clowney walk, which was also a mistake. But what's done is done and now it is time to focus on addressing the problems.

 

[jerseyhawksfan79]

The Jamal Adams trade was a bad trade. It was made in desperation because they failed to address the defensive line and then let Clowney walk, which was also a mistake. But what's done is done and now it is time to focus on addressing the problems.

That trade did kick us in the ass but 2023 the FO gets its first rounder back. Still have 6 picks this year and could probably move the second rounder back for additional picks. I do agree as frustrating as things have been over the year, we have one more game and then let the off-season begin.

 

[returnofjakedog]

you think the problem is our corners? now youre just being an obtuse twat

Huh?

No, THE problem isn't our CBs, but the CBs are ONE OF THE problems (and not a small one).

We've been picking up guys off of the scrapheap for years now.
*Claimed off of waivers: DJ Reed, Blessuan Austin, Nigel Warrior, Mike Jackson Sr. (practice squad)
*Traded for: John Reid for a 7th round pick, Sydney Jones for a 6th round pick *Undrafted FA: Gavin Heslop (hybrid CB/S who has barely played)
*Drafted: Tre Brown with a 4th round pick (looked decent in a couple of games but has been on IR since Sept. 7th)

You could also maybe claim Ugo Amadi (4th round pick) as a hybrid CB/S, but basically everywhere, including the team's official site lists him as a Safety so I'm sticking with that for the moment.

So we have 8 CBs on the roster, and have spent a 4th (out injured basically all year) , a 6th and a 7th (on 2 players that most likely would have been cut by their former teams, but PC/JS had put themselves in such a bad position that they couldn't risk them clearing waivers to get to our position). 1 mid round pick, and 2 low picks for an 8 man position group.

I am willing to bet that no team has spent less draft capital on CBs than the Seahawks.

Now that lack of capital unto itself is not indicative of performance, but the numbers are also poor at best. DJ Reed has played well enough (10 passes defended, and 2 Ints (both against Detroit), Brown looked decent in the very limited time before his injury, and Jones picked it up to mediocre after a really bad start (not really his fault as he was brought in with almost no practice time).

PFF isn't the "end-all, get-all" in player evaluation, but they do review every single play, and plug in all stats to provide an overall grade according to their formula. They have Reed listed as our top CB at 87th in the league and Jones at 100th. Read into tha as little or as much as you want but disregarding it out of hand would be stupid.

We DESPERATELY needed a CB at the top of our draft last year, but instead PC/JS wasted a pick on WR-Eskridge (only a waste because he is our #3 WR at very best, unless we trade DK).

PC seems to think he can just pick up a prototype, and then coach them up through his system but that hasn't worked since the LOB days, and that might have been a bit of an illusion with Sherman, Thomas, and Chancellor covering for the weaknesses of the likes of Browner and Maxwell. I firmly believe that PC ruined Tre Flowers' chances to succeed here by moving him from Safety to CB.

Maybe, just maybe, we can have an acceptable CB group next year IF Brown can come back healthy, and Reed and Jones can stabilize their play (and the DL can get more consistent pressure)..........but this year the Seahawks' CB play this year has overall been very bad, and might have been THE WORST in the league over the course of the full season (though the Lions might disagree).

If you don't think our CB play was a big issue this year, then you are delusional!

 

[MrS]

Right. Wilson is the problem. Got it.

he was one of the problems with that play.

Of course you did. I'm sure you knew that Sony Michele wasn't worth a 1st round pick as well. Because you know the draft better than the NFL teams do.

ive always held that RBs are never worth 1sts.

That you think there is NO price he is worth bringing back tells me that it is more about your ego than objective evaluation.

i wouldnt give any RB a second contract unless he is a HoFer like peterson or lynch. but a RB with his injury history? hell no.

You constantly whined about how we needed to fire Bevell. We fired Bevell and.. you wanted to fire Schottenheimer. Now you want to fire Waldron. And Carroll. And Norton. And dump Wilson.

gonna need a citation on that one

I want us to win Super Bowls. I recognize that is difficult to do. And I think that it is time for the team to move on from Pete because we haven't been able to move on.

But I also know that teams that blow things up every few years NEVER get out of that vicious cycle.

we arent winning a SB with wilson and his contract, we have too many holes and not enough ammo to fill them. we are closer to a SB with the picks and cap space we will get back for trading him.

unless, of course, he takes a big pay cut.

 

[flyerhawk]

he was one of the problems with that play.

Was he the problem that caused the defense to give up 14 points in the last 8 minutes of the game? Or when he threw the ball to Kearse to get them to that spot in the 1st place?

ive always held that RBs are never worth 1sts.

Yet you just said you wanted Chubb.

i wouldnt give any RB a second contract unless he is a HoFer like peterson or lynch. but a RB with his injury history? hell no.

This makes no sense. We give 2nd contracts to running backs all the time. No one is suggesting we should give him max money.

gonna need a citation on that one

Not worth my time.

we arent winning a SB with wilson and his contract, we have too many holes and not enough ammo to fill them. we are closer to a SB with the picks and cap space we will get back for trading him.

unless, of course, he takes a big pay cut.

There is a small chance we could win a Super Bowl in the next 3 years with Russ. There is a ZERO percent chance of the Hawks winning a Super Bowl in the next 3 years without him.

 

[Anointed One]

he had good games against absolute trash defenses, houston(32), chicago(24), detroit(30). 11 carries 39 yards against the rams(6). lets give him an extension.

Let's see how some of the other backs have performed this year against that Rams defense...

Jonathon Taylor - 15carries / 51 yards = 3.4 ypc
Ronald Jones/L Fournette - 5 carries/11 yards = 2.1 ypc; 4 carries / 8yards = 2.0 ypc
James Connor - 18 carries / 50yards = 2.0 ypc
Alex Collins - 15 carries / 47yards = 3.1 ypc
DeAndre Swift - 13 carries / 48 yds = 3.7ypc
Elijah Mitchell - 27 carries / 91 yds = 3.4ypc
AJ Dillon - 20 carries / 69yds = 3.5 ypc
James Connor - 13 / 31yds = 2.4 ypc
Rashaad Penny - 11 / 39yds = 3.4ypc

They only allowed 1 player over a 100yds and it was David Montgomery in week 1... Outside of that, nothing... Pour sample size for you since the Rams rush defense was top 5 in the NFL...

Over the past 4 weeks, Penny has been the best NFL back in the league - 95 more rushing yards than the next closest player to him over that span...Not bad...

 

[MrS]

Was he the problem that caused the defense to give up 14 points in the last 8 minutes of the game? Or when he threw the ball to Kearse to get them to that spot in the 1st place?

was it the defenses fault they offense didnt score in the last 20 minutes of game time? we can play this game all day, the fact is when the game was there for the taking he threw an INT.

Yet you just said you wanted Chubb.

you dont have time to look it up but i never said take chubb in rd 1. i wanted him later.

This makes no sense. We give 2nd contracts to running backs all the time. No one is suggesting we should give him max money.

how much would you give him?

Not worth my time.

making shit up is though apparently

There is a small chance we could win a Super Bowl in the next 3 years with Russ. There is a ZERO percent chance of the Hawks winning a Super Bowl in the next 3 years without him.

ill give it a 0% chance with him. you cant win SBs with $40 million dollar QBs that cant carry the offense. our best bet is he takes a pay cut so we can be competitive. if winning was his only worry he would do it in a heartbeat.

Let's see how some of the other backs have performed this year against that Rams defense...

Jonathon Taylor - 15carries / 51 yards = 3.4 ypc
Ronald Jones/L Fournette - 5 carries/11 yards = 2.1 ypc; 4 carries / 8yards = 2.0 ypc
James Connor - 18 carries / 50yards = 2.0 ypc
Alex Collins - 15 carries / 47yards = 3.1 ypc
DeAndre Swift - 13 carries / 48 yds = 3.7ypc
Elijah Mitchell - 27 carries / 91 yds = 3.4ypc
AJ Dillon - 20 carries / 69yds = 3.5 ypc
James Connor - 13 / 31yds = 2.4 ypc
Rashaad Penny - 11 / 39yds = 3.4ypc

They only allowed 1 player over a 100yds and it was David Montgomery in week 1... Outside of that, nothing... Pour sample size for you since the Rams rush defense was top 5 in the NFL...

Over the past 4 weeks, Penny has been the best NFL back in the league - 95 more rushing yards than the next closest player to him over that span...Not bad...

im not denying he has been good the past few games, but resigning him would still be a mistake. we need healthy RBs and he will waste cap space and a roster spot only to inevitably end up on IR. the probabilities are just not on his side.

 

[jerseyhawksfan79]

You resign Penny on a team friendly deal therefore they can use the draft pick else where. Just don't over pay for this past months production.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

You resign Penny on a team friendly deal therefore they can use the draft pick else where. Just don't over pay for this past months production.

Bingo!

 

[flyerhawk]

You resign Penny on a team friendly deal therefore they can use the draft pick else where. Just don't over pay for this past months production.

Exactly.

There aren't going to be a ton of teams yearning to give Penny a big contract because of a handful of good games. The Seahawks should offer him an incentive laden contract based on how much he actually plays.