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Your Offseason Winners and Losers discussion

msgkings322

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lol

Funny how he's suddenly a guy with 2 bad shoulders.

Unless you are somehow replacing him with a better player, anytime you lose a player at PG's level, it's a loss.

As you said yourself, they got 5 draft picks and 2 solid players.

But the Clips got a star.

Right now, it's a loss for OKC. But, if they can turn those picks into some really good players, barring some kind of devastating injury, they may not be able to turn it into a win...but they might be able to make it a break even.

But until we see what they do with those picks, it's a loss.
It's kind of a win-win, because the Thunder have decided to go full rebuild. Clippers going for the ring. So the Clippers got the big star they needed and the Thunder shed the big star contract and got a ton of picks. Both winners
 

WiggyRuss

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WINNERS:

A. Brooklyn Nets: They got Kyrie and Durant. This year they should be solid, but next year they will be title contenders. Their GM did a great job, inheriting a mess, finding good young players, building up assets and cap space.

B. Philadelphia 76'ers: Richardson is precisely what they needed- a young cheap 3 and D guy that will thrive in his role. Horford is another guy they needed- a savvy vet that can still play and is a great clubhouse guy. They are the favorites in the East.

C. LA Clippers: Paul George, Kawhi Leonard--- and they have a core of Beverly, Harrell, Shamet, and of course Lou Williams. They are probably the favorites in the entire NBA

D. Utah Jazz: Mike Conley is a great fit. I was never a huge Bogdon fan but he is a great fit there. Ed Davis was a nice value signing. This team is primed to make a run. Mitchell/Gobert/Conley is a very nice "Big 3"-- all guys that are unselfish and are hard workers and are smart basketball players. I am anxious to see Exum back from injury to see what he can do defensively.

E. Los Angeles Lakers: Pelinka squandered his leverage, mismanaged the cap, got played by Kawhi, and was left scrounging through the leftovers. They traded away everything that remained player/pick wise after going 7 years without a playoff win and much more draft capital into the future----- but they got Anthony Davis- a top 10 player to match with LeBron. It looked like they were going to strike out in free agency so Pelinka made the move he HAD to make, and it was worth it, even if i think he squandered his leverage and hilariously fucked up the cap room. Getting Davis will be worth it if they can capitalize on LeBron's last elite years.

LOSERS:

A. New York Knicks- DUMPSTER FIRE

B. Phoenix Suns: A terrible draft. Mismanaged free agency. Terrible front office and ownership.

C. Washington Wizards: A bad draft and looks like they refuse to deal Beal at the top of his value. As he gets closer to the end of his deal his value will continue to decrease and an injury would undermine it totally. Very little to like on this team and they don't even have a GM. Bad coaching/Bad Management/Bad Ownership is not a great trifecta. With Beal will prob. be just good enough to draft another guy who doesnt move the needle- AGAIN.

D. Toronto Raptors: Sucks to say it- but they went from contenders to pretenders with losing Kawhi. They will always have the title and Ujuri is a genius but this season is going to be a big step back until next year when Ujiri can work some magic

E. Golden State Warriors: Lost Kevin Durant and replaced him with a guy that a year ago today you would have said was INSANITY to give a max contract to. Maybe Russell is real, maybe he isnt, but its a risk giving him that contract basically based on one year where he was extremely ball dominant on a team that prides itself on its ball movement. Lost Iggy for nothing as well (though he is cooked).

UNDER THE RADAR:

Indiana Pacers: Brogdon and Warren are 2 guys that can shoot the 3 and handle the ball and get to the rim- while playing great defense. If Sabonis and Turner keep improving and Oladipo gets back they could be a team to watch.

Denver Nuggets: They really did not need to do anything. Jokic and Murray will just keep getting better.

Memphis Grizzlies: Played the cap pretty well, continued to add multiple first rounders into the future.
 

msgkings322

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WINNERS:

A. Brooklyn Nets: They got Kyrie and Durant. This year they should be solid, but next year they will be title contenders. Their GM did a great job, inheriting a mess, finding good young players, building up assets and cap space.

B. Philadelphia 76'ers: Richardson is precisely what they needed- a young cheap 3 and D guy that will thrive in his role. Horford is another guy they needed- a savvy vet that can still play and is a great clubhouse guy. They are the favorites in the East.

C. LA Clippers: Paul George, Kawhi Leonard--- and they have a core of Beverly, Harrell, Shamet, and of course Lou Williams. They are probably the favorites in the entire NBA

D. Utah Jazz: Mike Conley is a great fit. I was never a huge Bogdon fan but he is a great fit there. Ed Davis was a nice value signing. This team is primed to make a run. Mitchell/Gobert/Conley is a very nice "Big 3"-- all guys that are unselfish and are hard workers and are smart basketball players. I am anxious to see Exum back from injury to see what he can do defensively.

E. Los Angeles Lakers: Pelinka squandered his leverage, mismanaged the cap, got played by Kawhi, and was left scrounging through the leftovers. They traded away everything that remained player/pick wise after going 7 years without a playoff win and much more draft capital into the future----- but they got Anthony Davis- a top 10 player to match with LeBron. It looked like they were going to strike out in free agency so Pelinka made the move he HAD to make, and it was worth it, even if i think he squandered his leverage and hilariously fucked up the cap room. Getting Davis will be worth it if they can capitalize on LeBron's last elite years.

LOSERS:

A. New York Knicks- DUMPSTER FIRE

B. Phoenix Suns: A terrible draft. Mismanaged free agency. Terrible front office and ownership.

C. Washington Wizards: A bad draft and looks like they refuse to deal Beal at the top of his value. As he gets closer to the end of his deal his value will continue to decrease and an injury would undermine it totally. Very little to like on this team and they don't even have a GM. Bad coaching/Bad Management/Bad Ownership is not a great trifecta. With Beal will prob. be just good enough to draft another guy who doesnt move the needle- AGAIN.

D. Toronto Raptors: Sucks to say it- but they went from contenders to pretenders with losing Kawhi. They will always have the title and Ujuri is a genius but this season is going to be a big step back until next year when Ujiri can work some magic

E. Golden State Warriors: Lost Kevin Durant and replaced him with a guy that a year ago today you would have said was INSANITY to give a max contract to. Maybe Russell is real, maybe he isnt, but its a risk giving him that contract basically based on one year where he was extremely ball dominant on a team that prides itself on its ball movement. Lost Iggy for nothing as well (though he is cooked).

UNDER THE RADAR:

Indiana Pacers: Brogdon and Warren are 2 guys that can shoot the 3 and handle the ball and get to the rim- while playing great defense. If Sabonis and Turner keep improving and Oladipo gets back they could be a team to watch.

Denver Nuggets: They really did not need to do anything. Jokic and Murray will just keep getting better.

Memphis Grizzlies: Played the cap pretty well, continued to add multiple first rounders into the future.
Almost managed to keep your biases out, except the Warriors bit. Otherwise solid post.
 

msgkings322

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yah a team that lsot Kevin Durant should prob be in the winners, good call.
Considering how they turned lemons into lemonade, they may not have been winners but they are not losers this off-season. Toronto lost far more, and both had no control of where their big name wanted to go.
 

True Lakers Fan

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That would actually make the BIG losers. Use $40M on cap space the next couple years for nothing
That would really be true if you believe they can get a big agent to sign. They had a chance to sign Kevin Durant a s Irvingnand didnt
 

wildturkey

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Bottom line is they had to go about it the way they did and start fresh. The thing most "experts" tend to overlook is that trading Kemba would have meant them taking back needless salaries.

Taking salary back isn't always a bad thing. The only way its bad is if its long term. Kemba Walker is a good enough player to where many teams, especially those looking to either push into the championship or push to the playoffs, would have inquired about if the Hornets made him available last summer all the way thru the deadline. If they were never going to pay him the max, its exactly what they should have done. In dealing him, you might take back a little salary to make the trade work, but you're also picking up assets (draft picks, spare part players that could be hidden gems or something to packaged later on). Smart franchises do this. It's exactly how Sean Marks turned around the Nets. It's what Atlanta is in the process of doing when they tore down their Teague/Korver/Millsap/Horford team. The Hornets aren't smart though. They took a guy that had value, apparently had no plan whatsoever for him, and then recklessly threw money at player who is probably just a high quality back up. Doesn't take an expert to see that's just dumb
 

trojanfan12

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It's kind of a win-win, because the Thunder have decided to go full rebuild. Clippers going for the ring. So the Clippers got the big star they needed and the Thunder shed the big star contract and got a ton of picks. Both winners

Yeah, from that perspective I could see how some would see it as a win. Especially if it means that the Thunder are truly going full rebuild, which, imo, would mean getting rid of Westbrook too, if they can.

I just have trouble seeing it as a win when they gave up on PG/Westbrook after the first season of PG's contract.
 

msgkings322

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Yeah, from that perspective I could see how some would see it as a win. Especially if it means that the Thunder are truly going full rebuild, which, imo, would mean getting rid of Westbrook too, if they can.

I just have trouble seeing it as a win when they gave up on PG/Westbrook after the first season of PG's contract.
The "loss" was how badly the PG RW attempt went. But the trade is a win for sure, they are clearly rebuilding
 

CitySushi

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He didn't list the Heat which is absolutely stunning.
What’s hilarious is that if you took the Warriors analysis and replaced the warriors with the Cavs and Lebron with KD in 2018, there is a 1,000,000% chance Wiggy has them listed as the ultimate winners of the off season for acquiring an all star in return for a guy who was leaving anyways.
 

HurricaneDij39

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Taking salary back isn't always a bad thing. The only way its bad is if its long term. Kemba Walker is a good enough player to where many teams, especially those looking to either push into the championship or push to the playoffs, would have inquired about if the Hornets made him available last summer all the way thru the deadline. If they were never going to pay him the max, its exactly what they should have done. In dealing him, you might take back a little salary to make the trade work, but you're also picking up assets (draft picks, spare part players that could be hidden gems or something to packaged later on). Smart franchises do this. It's exactly how Sean Marks turned around the Nets. It's what Atlanta is in the process of doing when they tore down their Teague/Korver/Millsap/Horford team. The Hornets aren't smart though. They took a guy that had value, apparently had no plan whatsoever for him, and then recklessly threw money at player who is probably just a high quality back up. Doesn't take an expert to see that's just dumb

Well they were up against the luxury tax as it was, the primary reason they let Kemba walk. Going into the tax without Kemba would be beyond stupid, and even more so that what most claim them to be as is.
 

HurricaneDij39

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@wildturkey Also, go ahead and overlook Pop and the Spurs at your own risk. They're old, yes, but they upgraded their defense at perimeter depth with Carroll an Marcus Morris. This will allow LMA to play the stretch five full time, a more-natural role as he ages...
 

WiggyRuss

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What’s hilarious is that if you took the Warriors analysis and replaced the warriors with the Cavs and Lebron with KD in 2018, there is a 1,000,000% chance Wiggy has them listed as the ultimate winners of the off season for acquiring an all star in return for a guy who was leaving anyways.
oh yah...anytime you can sign a ball dominant guard with one great season under his belt that has limited athleticism to a max deal you just HAVE to do it.

I think Russell is good, but im loathe to totally 100% change my opinion on him from one season- especially as its not like his athleticism has changed from the day he was drafted.

The guy was never a great athlete- even at Ohio State. He has good length and hes a savvy player but hes not a guy who is known as an above the rim type of guy and his defense is not good.

Hes a decent shooter- little over 35% from 3.

He took almost 19 shots to get 21 points last year.

What are you saying you think a ball-dominant guard who got nearly 19 shots a game is gonna be this great fit?
 

msgkings322

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oh yah...anytime you can sign a ball dominant guard with one great season under his belt that has limited athleticism to a max deal you just HAVE to do it.

I think Russell is good, but im loathe to totally 100% change my opinion on him from one season- especially as its not like his athleticism has changed from the day he was drafted.

The guy was never a great athlete- even at Ohio State. He has good length and hes a savvy player but hes not a guy who is known as an above the rim type of guy and his defense is not good.

Hes a decent shooter- little over 35% from 3.

He took almost 19 shots to get 21 points last year.

What are you saying you think a ball-dominant guard who got nearly 19 shots a game is gonna be this great fit?

Better fit than nobody, which is what they could have gotten instead of a young allstar. They will need him a lot without Klay, and when Klay returns if it's working they will maybe keep him. If not they will flip him. Either way it's major lemonade from KD lemons, and City is absolutely right that if LeBron went to the Lakers in 2018 on a sign and trade instead of a walk you would have been over the moon with happiness.

Why do you waste your time this way? It's not like we all don't see how you post, for years now. Your hypocrisy and blatant homerism have made your posts lack much credibility. So just stop and post like a normal person, because you have a brain under all the hypocritical hate.
 

Shanemansj13

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oh yah...anytime you can sign a ball dominant guard with one great season under his belt that has limited athleticism to a max deal you just HAVE to do it.

I think Russell is good, but im loathe to totally 100% change my opinion on him from one season- especially as its not like his athleticism has changed from the day he was drafted.

The guy was never a great athlete- even at Ohio State. He has good length and hes a savvy player but hes not a guy who is known as an above the rim type of guy and his defense is not good.

Hes a decent shooter- little over 35% from 3.

He took almost 19 shots to get 21 points last year.

What are you saying you think a ball-dominant guard who got nearly 19 shots a game is gonna be this great fit?

I agree about the fit, doesnt seem to be a great fit but is less about the fit and more about them acquiring a player for a guy that could have just walked without a return. A couple years ago this would have never happened, a sign-and-trade. Either way, if it doesn’t work they can try to flip him for something of value at the deadline and Klay will be coming back. He still should have value regardless
 

msgkings322

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I agree about the fit, doesnt seem to be a great fit but is less about the fit and more about them acquiring a player for a guy that could have just walked without a return. A couple years ago this would have never happened, a sign-and-trade. Either way, if it doesn’t work they can try to flip him for something of value at the deadline and Klay will be coming back. He still should have value regardless

This is obvious to all, including Wiggy, but he can't get past his team hate.
 

Shanemansj13

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I would say the Lakers won on the pure fact they got AD but waiting on Kawhi hurt them even though they still found a way to get some nice pickups: Green, Cousins at 3.5M imo.

They could have gotten Redick for $13M/year...still thinking Green was the best pickup in FA for the Lakers even at $15M/year.
Also think Cousins at $3.5M isn't a mistake, I think it would have been a good get even with FA's available.
I like bringing back Caruso and the Cook signing but other than that...they just got some bad defensive players. Either way they should get 50-55+ wins even with a decent supporting cast.

They need to start this lineup:

PG - Caruso
SG - Green
SF - Lebron
PF - AD
C - Cousins

PG - Cook
PG - Rondo (limited minutes)
SG - KCP
SF - Dudley
PF - Kuzma
C - McGee

Rondo, KCP and Dudley are very bad defensively. Not sure how much JaMaychal Green is commanding but it could be a solid move. Kuzma, Cook and McGee will actually be solid players off the bench especially Kuzma but I still feel like they need another wing.
 

flyerhawk

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I disagree that the Thunder were losers this year. In fact I would list them as one of the big winners for the offseason. Maybe not the biggest winner, which would be the Clippers, but pretty darn close.

The Thunder were in repeater tax hell. They were on the hook for about 50 mill just in repeater tax penalties. And they STILL were a, at best, 2nd round exit from the playoffs.

So they moved off of Paul George, got out of repeater tax hell, got a young PG who could become an all-star and got 5 1st round picks plus a couple of swaps? That is a home run. Presti probably had to restrain himself from saying yes too fast when he was offered that deal.

They don't get their 1st Clippers pick until 2022. Maybe the Clippers are still a dominant team in 2022 by PG will be 32 and Kawhi will be 31 and both of them have been pretty far from a model of stamina in the league.

All of those picks may turn out to be mid to late 1sts but even that has value.

Presti was given a chance to get out of an unwinnable situation that he couldn't do himself. No way are they a loser.
 

flyerhawk

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I would say the Lakers won on the pure fact they got AD but waiting on Kawhi hurt them even though they still found a way to get some nice pickups: Green, Cousins at 3.5M imo.

They could have gotten Redick for $13M/year...still thinking Green was the best pickup in FA for the Lakers even at $15M/year.
Also think Cousins at $3.5M isn't a mistake, I think it would have been a good get even with FA's available.
I like bringing back Caruso and the Cook signing but other than that...they just got some bad defensive players. Either way they should get 50-55+ wins even with a decent supporting cast.

They need to start this lineup:

PG - Caruso
SG - Green
SF - Lebron
PF - AD
C - Cousins

PG - Cook
PG - Rondo (limited minutes)
SG - KCP
SF - Dudley
PF - Kuzma
C - McGee

Rondo, KCP and Dudley are very bad defensively. Not sure how much JaMaychal Green is commanding but it could be a solid move. Kuzma, Cook and McGee will actually be solid players off the bench especially Kuzma but I still feel like they need another wing.

Center and PG are pretty big question marks. The big issue for the Lakers is that they are going to be relying on Lebron a LOT and they need Cousins to be fully healthy.
 
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