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Your Offseason Winners and Losers discussion

wildturkey

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Now that Kawhi has finally signed, most of the offseason moves have wrapped up to the point where we can talk about everything that's transpired. What's everyone winners, losers, and any other thoughts you have?


Winners:

Clippers:
Self explanatory. Got arguably the best player in the game right now in Kawhi, snagged an excellent #2 guy to pair with him in Paul George AND STILL managed to keep most of its excellent role players. To put the icing on the cake, all those role players fit perfectly with the 2 stars they brought in. Beverely, Kawhi, and George is an absolute defensive nightmare. This team should be the favorites to win the title.

Lakers: They missed on Kawhi. It sucks. But at this time a year ago, would anyone say you're a loser if you've paired Lebron and Anthony Davis on the same team? Ideally, they would have gotten some better role players to put around them but they got stuck in an impossible situation waiting on Kawhi. He was worth the risk. But the ones they did get should still fit in well enough to make this team contenders.

Sixers: By virtue of their moves and the way the East broke around them, they find themselves arguably the favorites in the East and a real threat to win the NBA Finals. On paper imo, it would have been better to keep Butler, let Harris walk and bring in Horford, but for whatever reason, that Butler/Philly marriage didn't work out. But what they brought back for him (Richardson) along with Horford makes for a very good starting 5. They'll miss JJ Redick and could still use some shooting. It would help immensely if Ben Simmons could learn to shoot any shot beyond 5 feet, but this team is good.

Nets: The rebuild from where they were after KG/Pierce disaster was already impressive, now its somehow even better. Yeah, its a concern that KD never is the same player, but even a hampered KD should still be an all star caliber player. Paired with Kyrie and a slew of good role players, they are championship contenders. They'll just have to wait a year. I will give them a knock for DeAndre Jordan though. He's a declining player and Jarrett Allen is better player than him right now imo.

Jazz: For the first time since the 90s, the Jazz have a serious chance at the championship. This team is DEEP. They got a two way PG they desperately needed in Mike Conley. Bogdanovic is like a superman role player. They are right there with every other contender.

Warriors: This is simply for making the best of a bad situation. D'Angelo Russell might not be a good fit, but he should bring a good return if its doesn't work out. They could have lost KD for nothing. To get anything, let alone a player like D'Lo, is a win. And if Klay comes back healthy sometime before the playoffs, they're still in the mix next year. We've seen how good Klay/Green/Steph can be.

Pelicans: They got an amazing haul for Davis which they then turned parts (#4 pick) into even more pieces. Then made moves to get Redick and Favors. They've got a ton of young players, assets, Zion Williamson, and it all adds up to enough to compete for a playoff spot right away

The NBA and its fans: The league is more open than ever. More teams have a chance to win and contend. Any move whether its getting a star or just a role player could be thing that launches a team to a title with how even some of these rosters are. It's an exciting time

Losers:

Celtics (for now): We know Kyrie was a bad fit. Getting Kemba is a better move. But I'm putting them here because this was a team that had championship aspirations and I can't see them there any more after losing Horford. This has to be especially frustrating since the East opens up a bit more with Toronto taking a step back. I put "for now" here for two reasons. 1) They could potentially add some front court pieces in the coming months that would launch them back up and 2) It's a temporary set back. Their immediate future takes it a hit, but long haul, they should be fine.

Knicks: James Dolan for months acted like he was getting stars and came away with nothing. They somewhat reckless shed cap space for 2 max guys without gaining any safety net assets in return. There was no reason to deal Porzingis at the time they did without knowing they could at least get a star coming there. The only way its not a total disaster is they at least managed to not sign long term deals to C tier free agents. But they did use up a lot of their space on a ton of so-so guys that aren't really attractive to anyone in trades. They appear to just be biding time to try again in 2021 (which they'll probably fail again). They would be better off doing what the Nets did and Atlanta is doing now; using their cap space as a dumping ground for bad contracts while scooping up assets in the process. But its the Knicks, they won't do the smart thing.

Suns: Their offseason moves are plenty questionable (basically gave TJ Warren away for no reason) but this mostly for the fact they have to play the Lakers, Clips, and Warriors multiple times a year as division opponents. Good luck with that.

Neutral (neither good nor bad):

Heat: They traded for Jimmy Butler. But I'm not exactly sure how much better that makes them. The Heat's roster was a mess the last couple of years due some bad contract decisions from 2016, yet the still managed to be a fringe playoff team. Most of those deals were set to expire freeing up space in the coming years (2020, 21). They rid themselves of most of those deals, but also lost a lot of draft capital as well. What I'm saying is I'm not sure netting Butler and being 5th to 7th is all that much better than being 7th to 9th and waiting for those contracts to run out. What makes this mostly neutral is their work is mostly incomplete. Getting Butler should make them more attractive to other stars come the next 2 summers, which is something they couldn't say beforehand. It's harder to lure people when your roster doesn't have any proven guys. They have one now, but there's still work to be done to make it worthwhile.

Misc Thoughts:

-Most surprising (non George trade) move to me personally was JJ Redick to the Pels. From his podcast, I knew Redick lived in Brooklyn and loved it very much. So much so that I figured he'd either remain in Philly (not far from his home) or sign with whatever NY team KD/Kyrie ended up with. Both would keep him close to home and let him chase a ring. He'd also mentioned how he loved LA in the past so I figured he could ring chase with either LA team. Instead, he took a big payday with New Orleans, a borderline playoff team. Just goes to show you not all old vets want rings.

-I'm not entirely sold on OKC's haul being as amazing as most people are saying. People see all the picks and think of the Nets/Celtics trade but that was a different situation. KG/Pierce were already past their primes. Those picks were gonna deliver and be good very soon. The picks OKC are getting have a higher risk of not being worth much. For one, the Miami picks in the early '20s could be mid round picks now that Butler is there. Those Clippers picks will be low with Kawhi/George on the team until the mid 20s when they start getting old. Potentially you're looking at '24 or '25 before you get a nice pick. By then Kawhi will be 35, and you say he could be washed up, but look at Lebron right now. He's 34. Would you say he's washed? Whose to say the Clips won't find younger pieces to pair with Old Kawhi and extend their run? Everyone thinks draft picks are gold. They aren't. They are lottery tickets. They COULD be a million bucks. They could also be garbage. I think OKC should have pushed for more players like Harrell and Shamet, something tangible that you know has value.

-I'm also somewhat uncomfortable with the fact that Kawhi outwardly recruited a player under a multi-year contract with another team. It's not technically tampering but its kinda messed up. I also don't by the fact that OKC was therefore in an impossible situation and had to trade. He was still under contract for 2 more years before he could even think about leaving. Lots can happen in two years. What's he gonna do? Not play and be mad for 2 years? Not likely. What OKC did was fine, but at some point, I think a team is gonna not back down in a situation like this. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out
 

bksballer89

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Thoughts on the Pacers and Bucks summer moves?

Also surprised the Hornets didn't make your loser list.

Lose Kemba for nothing when they had chances to trade him the last 2 trade deadlines and replaced him with Rozier
 

Hangman

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Knicks might end up winners if they trade for Westbrook
 

Shanemansj13

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Knicks might end up winners if they trade for Westbrook

That would actually make the BIG losers. Use $40M on cap space the next couple years for nothing
 
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Would necessary call GSW a winner. We need to see how they bounce back from losing KD.

They were clear favorites every year for the last 5. They're not anymore. That's not a winner in my opinion.
 

bksballer89

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Would necessary call GSW a winner. We need to see how they bounce back from losing KD.

They were clear favorites every year for the last 5. They're not anymore. That's not a winner in my opinion.

Well we all knew KD was leaving for the most part. Most didn't think they can get an All Star player to replace him.

I think @wildturkey listed them as a winner because they were able to bring in another AS after losing KD which looked highly unlikely
 

wildturkey

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Thoughts on the Pacers and Bucks summer moves?

Also surprised the Hornets didn't make your loser list.

Lose Kemba for nothing when they had chances to trade him the last 2 trade deadlines and replaced him with Rozier

Didn't want to make the post too long winded. It's already pretty long as is.

Bucks basically did what they had to do. Wouldn't really call them a winner or a loser though if forced, I might lean loser. That Middleton contract is gonna look rough as hell in the future but they were hamstrung. They also should have sucked it up and paid the price to keep Brogdan. But it feels weird to call them "losers" considering they should still be listed as championship contenders.

Pacers did fine though I think its a bit of an overpay for Brogdan. A fat contract and giving up picks for a guy that I think is just going to be a high quality starter (non-star) for his career. A little steep but he makes up for the loss of Bogdanovic and actually fits in better age wise. Given that Oladipo could be out awhile, I think it would make the most sense to dip into the lottery in hopes you can strike it big with the new odds because the draft is really the only way a team like Indy can get high level talent, but the moves they make should prevent them from doing that. They should still be a playoff team

Hornets are too irrelevant to list as losers. It's just a given, lol. Should have traded Kemba some time last year and then overpaid Rozier. Not wasting my time on that.
 

HurricaneDij39

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I think Portland needs to be listed as a loser. Beyond Lillard and McCollum, they had lost all of their regular rotation players from this year's conference finalist and their biggest addition is Hassan Whiteside? :scratch:

Yikes.
 

HurricaneDij39

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Hornets are too irrelevant to list as losers. It's just a given, lol. Should have traded Kemba some time last year and then overpaid Rozier. Not wasting my time on that.

Bottom line is they had to go about it the way they did and start fresh. The thing most "experts" tend to overlook is that trading Kemba would have meant them taking back needless salaries.
 

Gman

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Good thread.

WINNERS

- L.A. Clippers - Duh. Not only did they bring in the superstars, but their roster is still pretty dang good around them. Grand slam home run.

- Philly 76ers - I never loved Butler as a player. He has elite competitiveness, but I don't think he is a team guy. So I overall like the direction they moved by paying Horford (a double plus team/glue guy) instead. One concern I see is that Ben Simmons is best in the open court... but now the overall roster is slower. There is some definite friction with that. Defensively should be one of the very best in the NBA.

- Utah Jazz - I think they maximized their potential this off-season and will have a very strong team in the upcoming. Conley is perfect for this group. Some defensive weak areas, but presence of Gobert mitigates that. Strong depth gives Coach Snyder options.

- New Orleans Pelicans - They lucked into the top overall pick, but gotta respect the wheeling and dealing their front office did to maximize their asset base. A small market team like the Pel's needs the positive future picks to keep the momentum going... and I think there is some chance that things aren't all rosy in the Lakers medium to long-term future.

- Atlanta Hawks - Brick by brick, stone by stone... the Hawks are building a team in the ATL. They went up and grabbed their guy in Hunter, who is exactly what they needed. I see the vision, and the future is bright.

LOSERS

- Charlotte Hornets - Yeah, I know: they always suck. This off-season illustrates why. They clearly had no plan when it came to Kemba... but why add another bad contract in Rozier (almost 20 million per over 3 years)? The bad contracts are what kills a team, and the Hornets seemingly never learn.

- Houston Rockets - They seem stuck in the mud to me. Their formula isn't good enough, and they are heading into next season with basically the same formula. In an off-season where other teams made huge moves, the status quo amounts to a loss.

- Oklahoma Thunder - Having Paul George bail on them is a slap in the face and a loss. They did alright getting as good a return as they could get given a bad situation... but it doesn't change the overall gut punch at the center of it all.

- Phoenix Suns - I don't know the plan, I don't see a plan.

NOTABLE SNUBS

- L.A. Lakers - Yes, they have their 2 stars. At that is huge. The NBA is a superstar league and I wouldn't downplay the significance of landing 2 superstars. That being said: I do not love the roster construction around LeBron and A.D, and they are likely to squander the near-term opportunity they have at a title as a result.

- Brooklyn Nets - Call me bitter if you must, but I'm bearish on the addition of Kyrie... and the very serious injury to Durant is unfortunate. Meanwhile, they traded in their strong culture for a leadership cabal of Kyrie/KD/Jordan. They are in a holding pattern for one year with Kyrie at the helm... this thing could go wrong.

-
 

trojanfan12

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Well we all knew KD was leaving for the most part. Most didn't think they can get an All Star player to replace him.

I think @wildturkey listed them as a winner because they were able to bring in another AS after losing KD which looked highly unlikely

Agree. D-Lo is obviously no Klay, but he should be a solid "stand in" while Klay recovers.

Then, once Klay returns, maybe they find a role for him that makes them better or they move him for assets.

They are absolutely winners this off-season, imo.
 

trojanfan12

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Bucks basically did what they had to do. Wouldn't really call them a winner or a loser though if forced, I might lean loser.

You are soooo getting called a deepshit when buck-Alice sees this.
 

GNG

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Now that Kawhi has finally signed, most of the offseason moves have wrapped up to the point where we can talk about everything that's transpired. What's everyone winners, losers, and any other thoughts you have?


Winners:

Clippers:
Self explanatory. Got arguably the best player in the game right now in Kawhi, snagged an excellent #2 guy to pair with him in Paul George AND STILL managed to keep most of its excellent role players. To put the icing on the cake, all those role players fit perfectly with the 2 stars they brought in. Beverely, Kawhi, and George is an absolute defensive nightmare. This team should be the favorites to win the title.

Lakers: They missed on Kawhi. It sucks. But at this time a year ago, would anyone say you're a loser if you've paired Lebron and Anthony Davis on the same team? Ideally, they would have gotten some better role players to put around them but they got stuck in an impossible situation waiting on Kawhi. He was worth the risk. But the ones they did get should still fit in well enough to make this team contenders.

Sixers: By virtue of their moves and the way the East broke around them, they find themselves arguably the favorites in the East and a real threat to win the NBA Finals. On paper imo, it would have been better to keep Butler, let Harris walk and bring in Horford, but for whatever reason, that Butler/Philly marriage didn't work out. But what they brought back for him (Richardson) along with Horford makes for a very good starting 5. They'll miss JJ Redick and could still use some shooting. It would help immensely if Ben Simmons could learn to shoot any shot beyond 5 feet, but this team is good.

Nets: The rebuild from where they were after KG/Pierce disaster was already impressive, now its somehow even better. Yeah, its a concern that KD never is the same player, but even a hampered KD should still be an all star caliber player. Paired with Kyrie and a slew of good role players, they are championship contenders. They'll just have to wait a year. I will give them a knock for DeAndre Jordan though. He's a declining player and Jarrett Allen is better player than him right now imo.

Jazz: For the first time since the 90s, the Jazz have a serious chance at the championship. This team is DEEP. They got a two way PG they desperately needed in Mike Conley. Bogdanovic is like a superman role player. They are right there with every other contender.

Warriors: This is simply for making the best of a bad situation. D'Angelo Russell might not be a good fit, but he should bring a good return if its doesn't work out. They could have lost KD for nothing. To get anything, let alone a player like D'Lo, is a win. And if Klay comes back healthy sometime before the playoffs, they're still in the mix next year. We've seen how good Klay/Green/Steph can be.

Pelicans: They got an amazing haul for Davis which they then turned parts (#4 pick) into even more pieces. Then made moves to get Redick and Favors. They've got a ton of young players, assets, Zion Williamson, and it all adds up to enough to compete for a playoff spot right away

The NBA and its fans: The league is more open than ever. More teams have a chance to win and contend. Any move whether its getting a star or just a role player could be thing that launches a team to a title with how even some of these rosters are. It's an exciting time

Losers:

Celtics (for now): We know Kyrie was a bad fit. Getting Kemba is a better move. But I'm putting them here because this was a team that had championship aspirations and I can't see them there any more after losing Horford. This has to be especially frustrating since the East opens up a bit more with Toronto taking a step back. I put "for now" here for two reasons. 1) They could potentially add some front court pieces in the coming months that would launch them back up and 2) It's a temporary set back. Their immediate future takes it a hit, but long haul, they should be fine.

Knicks: James Dolan for months acted like he was getting stars and came away with nothing. They somewhat reckless shed cap space for 2 max guys without gaining any safety net assets in return. There was no reason to deal Porzingis at the time they did without knowing they could at least get a star coming there. The only way its not a total disaster is they at least managed to not sign long term deals to C tier free agents. But they did use up a lot of their space on a ton of so-so guys that aren't really attractive to anyone in trades. They appear to just be biding time to try again in 2021 (which they'll probably fail again). They would be better off doing what the Nets did and Atlanta is doing now; using their cap space as a dumping ground for bad contracts while scooping up assets in the process. But its the Knicks, they won't do the smart thing.

Suns: Their offseason moves are plenty questionable (basically gave TJ Warren away for no reason) but this mostly for the fact they have to play the Lakers, Clips, and Warriors multiple times a year as division opponents. Good luck with that.

Neutral (neither good nor bad):

Heat: They traded for Jimmy Butler. But I'm not exactly sure how much better that makes them. The Heat's roster was a mess the last couple of years due some bad contract decisions from 2016, yet the still managed to be a fringe playoff team. Most of those deals were set to expire freeing up space in the coming years (2020, 21). They rid themselves of most of those deals, but also lost a lot of draft capital as well. What I'm saying is I'm not sure netting Butler and being 5th to 7th is all that much better than being 7th to 9th and waiting for those contracts to run out. What makes this mostly neutral is their work is mostly incomplete. Getting Butler should make them more attractive to other stars come the next 2 summers, which is something they couldn't say beforehand. It's harder to lure people when your roster doesn't have any proven guys. They have one now, but there's still work to be done to make it worthwhile.

Misc Thoughts:

-Most surprising (non George trade) move to me personally was JJ Redick to the Pels. From his podcast, I knew Redick lived in Brooklyn and loved it very much. So much so that I figured he'd either remain in Philly (not far from his home) or sign with whatever NY team KD/Kyrie ended up with. Both would keep him close to home and let him chase a ring. He'd also mentioned how he loved LA in the past so I figured he could ring chase with either LA team. Instead, he took a big payday with New Orleans, a borderline playoff team. Just goes to show you not all old vets want rings.

-I'm not entirely sold on OKC's haul being as amazing as most people are saying. People see all the picks and think of the Nets/Celtics trade but that was a different situation. KG/Pierce were already past their primes. Those picks were gonna deliver and be good very soon. The picks OKC are getting have a higher risk of not being worth much. For one, the Miami picks in the early '20s could be mid round picks now that Butler is there. Those Clippers picks will be low with Kawhi/George on the team until the mid 20s when they start getting old. Potentially you're looking at '24 or '25 before you get a nice pick. By then Kawhi will be 35, and you say he could be washed up, but look at Lebron right now. He's 34. Would you say he's washed? Whose to say the Clips won't find younger pieces to pair with Old Kawhi and extend their run? Everyone thinks draft picks are gold. They aren't. They are lottery tickets. They COULD be a million bucks. They could also be garbage. I think OKC should have pushed for more players like Harrell and Shamet, something tangible that you know has value.

-I'm also somewhat uncomfortable with the fact that Kawhi outwardly recruited a player under a multi-year contract with another team. It's not technically tampering but its kinda messed up. I also don't by the fact that OKC was therefore in an impossible situation and had to trade. He was still under contract for 2 more years before he could even think about leaving. Lots can happen in two years. What's he gonna do? Not play and be mad for 2 years? Not likely. What OKC did was fine, but at some point, I think a team is gonna not back down in a situation like this. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out
The Bucks are winners by keeping their core lineup intact.
 

Wishbone

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Good thread.

WINNERS

- L.A. Clippers - Duh. Not only did they bring in the superstars, but their roster is still pretty dang good around them. Grand slam home run.

- Philly 76ers - I never loved Butler as a player. He has elite competitiveness, but I don't think he is a team guy. So I overall like the direction they moved by paying Horford (a double plus team/glue guy) instead. One concern I see is that Ben Simmons is best in the open court... but now the overall roster is slower. There is some definite friction with that. Defensively should be one of the very best in the NBA.

- Utah Jazz - I think they maximized their potential this off-season and will have a very strong team in the upcoming. Conley is perfect for this group. Some defensive weak areas, but presence of Gobert mitigates that. Strong depth gives Coach Snyder options.

- New Orleans Pelicans - They lucked into the top overall pick, but gotta respect the wheeling and dealing their front office did to maximize their asset base. A small market team like the Pel's needs the positive future picks to keep the momentum going... and I think there is some chance that things aren't all rosy in the Lakers medium to long-term future.

- Atlanta Hawks - Brick by brick, stone by stone... the Hawks are building a team in the ATL. They went up and grabbed their guy in Hunter, who is exactly what they needed. I see the vision, and the future is bright.

LOSERS

- Charlotte Hornets - Yeah, I know: they always suck. This off-season illustrates why. They clearly had no plan when it came to Kemba... but why add another bad contract in Rozier (almost 20 million per over 3 years)? The bad contracts are what kills a team, and the Hornets seemingly never learn.

- Houston Rockets - They seem stuck in the mud to me. Their formula isn't good enough, and they are heading into next season with basically the same formula. In an off-season where other teams made huge moves, the status quo amounts to a loss.

- Oklahoma Thunder - Having Paul George bail on them is a slap in the face and a loss. They did alright getting as good a return as they could get given a bad situation... but it doesn't change the overall gut punch at the center of it all.

- Phoenix Suns - I don't know the plan, I don't see a plan.

NOTABLE SNUBS

- L.A. Lakers - Yes, they have their 2 stars. At that is huge. The NBA is a superstar league and I wouldn't downplay the significance of landing 2 superstars. That being said: I do not love the roster construction around LeBron and A.D, and they are likely to squander the near-term opportunity they have at a title as a result.

- Brooklyn Nets - Call me bitter if you must, but I'm bearish on the addition of Kyrie... and the very serious injury to Durant is unfortunate. Meanwhile, they traded in their strong culture for a leadership cabal of Kyrie/KD/Jordan. They are in a holding pattern for one year with Kyrie at the helm... this thing could go wrong.

-

Not sure how you can call OKC a loser when they got a record 5 first round draft picks and 2 solid players for one guy with 2 bad shoulders.
 

Gman

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Not sure how you can call OKC a loser when they got a record 5 first round draft picks and 2 solid players for one guy with 2 bad shoulders.
You're talking about the same guy your franchise basically totally invested in.
 

trojanfan12

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Not sure how you can call OKC a loser when they got a record 5 first round draft picks and 2 solid players for one guy with 2 bad shoulders.

lol

Funny how he's suddenly a guy with 2 bad shoulders.

Unless you are somehow replacing him with a better player, anytime you lose a player at PG's level, it's a loss.

As you said yourself, they got 5 draft picks and 2 solid players.

But the Clips got a star.

Right now, it's a loss for OKC. But, if they can turn those picks into some really good players, barring some kind of devastating injury, they may not be able to turn it into a win...but they might be able to make it a break even.

But until we see what they do with those picks, it's a loss.
 

bksballer89

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I think Portland needs to be listed as a loser. Beyond Lillard and McCollum, they had lost all of their regular rotation players from this year's conference finalist and their biggest addition is Hassan Whiteside? :scratch:

Yikes.

Losers?

You do realize how trash Aminu and Turner was right? Both were awful in the playoffs and couldn't shoot for shit.

Bazemore is a better fit for them as he is a solid shooter.

Signing back Hood for only 8M per year was a great deal as he better than both Aminu and Harkless.

Whiteside was necessary with Nurk being out most of next season and Kanter moving on.

They're going to have a legit starting lineup of Dame, CJ, Hood, Collins, and Whiteside.

They however do need to find out how to replace Seth Curry but IMO the other losses are not major as they made up for most of them.
 

trojanfan12

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You do realize how trash Aminu and Turner was right? Both were awful in the playoffs and couldn't shoot for shit.

Bazemore is a better fit for them as he is a solid shooter.

Signing back Hood for only 8M per year was a great deal as he better than both Aminu and Harkless.

Whiteside was necessary with Nurk being out most of next season and Kanter moving on.

They're going to have a legit starting lineup of Dame, CJ, Hood, Collins, and Whiteside.

They however do need to find out how to replace Seth Curry but IMO the other losses are not major as they made up for most of them.

Agree. At worst, the Blazers ended up neutral. The moves they made didn't make them significantly better...but they definitely didn't get worse, imo.
 
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