No rebuild- PC and Jody Allen

[flyerhawk]

HOF QBs come along VERY rarely.... don't let Wilson walk (unless he absolutely wants to). Regardless, IF Wilson wants to stay in Seattle he will.... he has a no trade clause. I just wonder if Wilson wanting to leave would be because of Pete, in which case you let him go.

Look at where the Packers will be without Rodgers? Probably an 8-9 team. I don't think Jordan Love is the answer. It was a reach pick to begin with. And Packers fans love to say, "But Rodgers was a late 1st round pick!" Rodgers also had 1st overall talent, the 49ers could've selected him and nobody would've been surprised. And then he free fell because literally nobody else needed a QB (and arguably the Packers didn't either).

I do think it is going to be a Pete vs Russ fight this offseason. I thought that last offseason.

 

[flyerhawk]

they are living off that draft to this day

being a GM is more than just drafting.

YOU are the one who was focusing on draft success. The reality is that this team has the 2nd most wins of any team in the NFL over the last 10 years. Yet you think we need to blow everything up because of one bad season. Granted you wanted to blow it up LAST season when the team was 12-4.

 

[seattlefan75]

Baseball is set up differently because the CBA gives the teams 7 years of control on players. And baseball teams aren't nearly as dependent on pitchers as football teams are dependent on quarterbacks.


This will be the 1st year since 1996 that the Seahawks will wind up in last place of their division. If we get rid of Wilson, it won't be a one time event. I don't think most Hawks fans comprehend what it is like to be a cellar dweller every year. I'm surrounded by Jets and Giants fans and let me tell you, they are miserable. The Giants are about to clean house, again. The Jets just cleaned house last year and already looking at doing it again in the next year or 2.

We should be doing everything we can to keep Russ and work through the transition from our 71 year old coach.

I ment to say that Pete and JS are not looking to do any kind of rebuild where RW leaves. But I do remember that post Shaun Alexander/Matt Hasselbeck/Mike Holmgren super bowl run where everything fell apart and it felt like we were such an irrelevant franchise. We were drafting busts back then like Lawrence Jackson and Kelly Jennings. I've met people that didn't know Seattle even had a team. I feel you when you listed those other teams the only success I have ever seen the Jets have was when they had Mark Sanchez and Rex Ryan in which they won like 10 games one season and that was it. I have always told Seahawk fans to prepare for the day there was no RW or PC and that we would be a last place team and to enjoy everything while it lasted. This is where it stings that we lost that super bowl to the patriots. I think its fine for things to crumble if we won 2 super bowls from it.

 

[Uhsplit]

Then we should do it, that trade was a galactically stupid mistake and there no sense sticking with it just because you paid out the ass for him.

You think he is such a lousy performer we should just dump him? He would have to be by far the worst SS in the league to do that. Is that what you are saying?

 

[MrS]

You think he is such a lousy performer we should just dump him? He would have to be by far the worst SS in the league to do that. Is that what you are saying?

and schneider should lose his head too

 

[Anointed One]

What’s harder to find - a great QB or a great HC?

 

[shopson67]

Both coordinators need to be replaced. I honestly think schemes on offense and defense have been the biggest hurdle outside losing Russell for 3 games. Guys have been out of position and obviously wrong plays/coverages have been called all season long. Guys didn't just forget how to be football players; They're not being put in the correct positions to succeed often enough.

Sure, there are some holes that need talent filled in, but I think we have the talent to be much better than what we've seen this season if the coaching was up to snuff.

If both coordinators are going to be replaced, what is the point of holding on to Carroll?

 

[shopson67]

What’s harder to find - a great QB or a great HC?

For the Hawks? They have the QB.

 

[Anointed One]

For the Hawks? They have the QB.

In the league… Seems like they’re are more great QBs than great HCs

 

[flyerhawk]

I sure do remember being a basement team and while I have no desire to revisit those kind of years I feel it may be unavoidable given the quality of the roster. The media been pushing the idea that a new coach is the answer to turning things around, disregarding that most new hires at the position are failures in the same vein as most QBs being failures. Let me remind everyone of Jim Mora, Dennis Erickson and Tom Flores history with the Seahawks. Look at the records of coaches hired in the last 3 years in the league and it's not good.
As for his age ( which you like to mention repeatedly) well it's not much different then Bill Belichick or Bruce Arians ( less then a year I believe) and they are at the top and he's healthier then Andy Reid who is less then 7 years younger. This age thing is a bias that doesn't jive with those at the top who have the most success ( the three I just mentioned) . It's not his age really, it's that he doesn't have a wide open, pass crazy, type of offense. For some reason fans want to see pass, pass, pass and more passing which is why Andy Reid and Bruce Arians are lauded and Pete is described as over the hill. Pete is more in the vein of Bilichick who also likes the run to set up the pass.
Course Pete isn't going to last forever either, so a new hire at OC to eventually replace him would be prudent, but it needs to be someone special also. I would prefer that to letting Pete go. As for RW we'll have to see how it goes. One of the rumors are that it's John Schneider that wants to move RW and Pete has been blocking the idea. Food for thought and it fits with what RW and Pete have commented on.
If a full rebuild isn't happening then there is no point in trading RW. The idea that the Seahawks can remain competitive by trading him is a pipe dream. My feelings were that a full rebuild now would be easier now then if they wait and have another disastrous season which would just leave the team with that much less in trade value. For example if RW has another bad season, what happens to his trade value? However as I stated I'm not looking forward to losing seasons so I'll just roll with what ever is decided.

A lot to unpack here.

There is no question that bringing in a new coach involves risk. Which is why I was against doing that up until this year, although last year was when I started to have doubts.

As for coach ages, history doesn't lie. Right now Pete Carroll is the 3rd oldest full time head coach in NFL history. And one of the guys in front of Pete owned the team. As I believe you said about Russ, Father Time is undefeated. Whether it's this year or next year or the year after, Pete is going to retire one way or the other.

As for why I think it is time for Pete to move, it has nothing to do with running versus passing. I think that is actually a misnomer. It's about how you set up your game plan and your willingness to adapt on both sides of the ball.

On offense, we continue to be completely stymied once teams take away our plan A. If we can't establish the run, then we have no other plan. Without an effective running game, you can't can't throw the ball deep. We continue to be the worst team in the NFL when it comes to screens. We have 3 tight ends that can catch and yet we rarely utilize them enough. Yesterday we actually ran plays from under center which I am continually baffled as to why we don't this more often or why we don't run play action more often.

On defense, we have essentially the same defense for 10 years and shown no inclination to change that. If our defense was good then that would be ok. But it's not good.

 

[flyerhawk]

In the league… Seems like they’re are more great QBs than great HCs

Who would you say are the great QBs in the league right now?

Rodgers, Brady, Mahomes. Who else?

 

[DHoey]

I think this year has shown us how fragile a NFL roster is and how thin of a line there is between winning and losing. I don't think Pete is done and I don't think Russell is done. I do think that Ken Norton should go and I think that Waldren should stay.

A few thoughts on the offense:
For Pete's offense to really work, we need healthy RB's. We have had some really bad luck the last few years of doing that.

We need a anchor in the middle of the offensive line because Pocic isn't it. On the other hand, I like what Curhan has done. We may have stumbled on a RT. Not sure what to do about Duane Brown.

Defense:

I feel ok about our LB's, even with Bobby gone.

I feel ok about our secondary if everyone is healthy. Depth really got tested there this year, and it hurt at some very critical times this year.

Our Dline needs a playmaker. I think Taylor stepped up and is solid. I like Woods, he's a soild anchor but we need two more playmakers up there.

Special Teams:

All-Pro punter and a kicker that cost us. Seems like our kickers have 2 good years and then get a case of the yips. No clue why and if it can be fixed but it has happened to Haushka, Walsh and now Myers.

Overall I think that Pete's system can and still will win games. We need to run the ball, that doesn't work if you have no healthy RB's. The defense needs playmakers up front to make the secondary work. I don't think it's time to pull the plug yet.

 

[shopson67]

In the league… Seems like they’re are more great QBs than great HCs

I think the league needs more HCs that manage coordinators rather than calls plays or defenses. Maybe excellent coordinators should stay as just that instead of being elevated to head coach; it's a different job with very different job requirements IMO and takes these coordinators away from what they do best.

While there may be more great QBs, neither is readily available. How many great QBs would you say there are? Maybe enough for a third of the league? Certainly less than half IMO.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

A lot to unpack here.

There is no question that bringing in a new coach involves risk. Which is why I was against doing that up until this year, although last year was when I started to have doubts.

As for coach ages, history doesn't lie. Right now Pete Carroll is the 3rd oldest full time head coach in NFL history. And one of the guys in front of Pete owned the team. As I believe you said about Russ, Father Time is undefeated. Whether it's this year or next year or the year after, Pete is going to retire one way or the other.

As for why I think it is time for Pete to move, it has nothing to do with running versus passing. I think that is actually a misnomer. It's about how you set up your game plan and your willingness to adapt on both sides of the ball.

On offense, we continue to be completely stymied once teams take away our plan A. If we can't establish the run, then we have no other plan. Without an effective running game, you can't can't throw the ball deep. We continue to be the worst team in the NFL when it comes to screens. We have 3 tight ends that can catch and yet we rarely utilize them enough. Yesterday we actually ran plays from under center which I am continually baffled as to why we don't this more often or why we don't run play action more often.

On defense, we have essentially the same defense for 10 years and shown no inclination to change that. If our defense was good then that would be ok. But it's not good.

Yes hiring a new coach statically isn't a successful move. Often time it is disastrous. Pete is old, but his age has not been a problem and replacing him is likely to make the Seahawks that basement team once again, why rush that? Unlike players, age doesn't come into play until it becomes a health issue ( while would include senility, but Pete isn't senile at all).
Also if Pete goes and Schneider stays I believe RW gets traded. Everything Pete says indicates he wants RW to stay. RW has said he wants to stay but is not sure that will happen. Last season JS had trade conversations to trade Wilson and had a offer from the Bears that Pete nixed. If the Seahawks let both Pete and JS go then I find it likely a rebuilds begins. Basically it seems Pete is what is holding it up a full rebuild.

Edit: Guess you could say I'm torn. On one hand I think the timing for a rebuild is better this year then next year ( for trade chips value) but fear a new staff will screw it up badly.

 

[flyerhawk]

Yes hiring a new coach statically isn't a successful move. Often time it is disastrous. Pete is old, but his age has not been a problem and replacing him is likely to make the Seahawks that basement team once again, why rush that? Unlike players, age doesn't come into play until it becomes a health issue ( while would include senility, but Pete isn't senile at all).
Also if Pete goes and Schneider stays I believe RW gets traded. Everything Pete says indicates he wants RW to stay. RW has said he wants to stay but is not sure that will happen. Last season JS had trade conversations to trade Wilson and had a offer from the Bears that Pete nixed. If the Seahawks let both Pete and JS go then I find it likely a rebuilds begins. Basically it seems Pete is what is holding it up a full rebuild.

Edit: Guess you could say I'm torn. On one hand I think the timing for a rebuild is better this year then next year ( for trade chips value) but fear a new staff will screw it up badly.

I am certain that Pete doesn't want Russ to leave. That doesn't mean that Russ wants to stay if Pete is still the HC. I don't believe any reports that claim to know whether Pete or JS wanted to move/keep Russ.

If Russ is happy with Pete then maybe we could do another year, although I see little reason to noticeable differences in the outcome. But if it is Pete or Russ then the choice is pretty obvious to me. Clearly you think we would be better keeping Pete and letting Russ walk. I find that reasoning strange. Unless you think Pete is going to keep coaching into his late 70s.

 

[HaroldSeattle]

I am certain that Pete doesn't want Russ to leave. That doesn't mean that Russ wants to stay if Pete is still the HC

I for one have never heard RW say or hint that it was him or Pete. I have heard him say he wants to remain in Seattle, but wasn't sure it was in the cards. People take that to mean he wants Pete to go, but what if that means he think JS wants to trade him?

 

[flyerhawk]

I for one have never heard RW say or hint that it was him or Pete. I have heard him say he wants to remain in Seattle, but wasn't sure it was in the cards. People take that to mean he wants Pete to go, but what if that means he think JS wants to trade him?

Well anything is possible I guess. I personally would be shocked if JS wanted to trade Russ.

I don't think that Russ will ever take the PR hit of publicly criticizing PC or JS or demanding a trade. But that doesn't mean he won't push to move out.

 

[JMR]

OK...

I'll ask you the same question I asked flyer...

How can we improve this team without trading Russ?

A full scale rebuild is needed

A: Bring in a HC that is more inclined to endorse an offensive approach that matches up with current times in the league and takes advantage of the talent we have in the passing game. PC has been a super successful coach for us, but we haven't done squat in the playoffs in quite a while. We are not holding up against the other top teams like we did when we had a great defense and physical run game. Both of those things are unlikely to come back when we are paying a franchise QB, so we need to adjust our approach to the game. Pete is not going to do much adjusting in his 70s. Time for fresh ideas.

 

[Judge Fudge]

A: Bring in a HC that is more inclined to endorse an offensive approach that matches up with current times in the league and takes advantage of the talent we have in the passing game. PC has been a super successful coach for us, but we haven't done squat in the playoffs in quite a while. We are not holding up against the other top teams like we did when we had a great defense and physical run game. Both of those things are unlikely to come back when we are paying a franchise QB, so we need to adjust our approach to the game. Pete is not going to do much adjusting in his 70s. Time for fresh ideas.

I agree. I actually liked some of what I saw yesterday with using Eskridge as a RB.

We need a coach that will use that " Shit" more

 

[flyerhawk]

A: Bring in a HC that is more inclined to endorse an offensive approach that matches up with current times in the league and takes advantage of the talent we have in the passing game. PC has been a super successful coach for us, but we haven't done squat in the playoffs in quite a while. We are not holding up against the other top teams like we did when we had a great defense and physical run game. Both of those things are unlikely to come back when we are paying a franchise QB, so we need to adjust our approach to the game. Pete is not going to do much adjusting in his 70s. Time for fresh ideas.

You and I are in agreement here.

PC keeps wanting to win the way he won in the past but he's ignoring the reality on the ground. Consider the following.

We have the worst time of possession margin in the NFL
We have the worst offensive plays per game in the NFL
We have the 2nd fewest turnovers per game in the NFL
We have called the fewest 4th down offensive plays in the NFL.

These were all similar last season but not as stark.

When you have a great defense like the Hawks did from 2012-2015 then it makes sense to play conservatively and avoid risks.

When you have a suspect defense that only tightens up when the field is compressed in the red zone, you can't play that conservatively because your offense never gets in rhythm and your defense gets exhausted. This is the exact opposite of how the team played in the Super Bowl years where the running game would just pummel the defense and the other team's defense would make mistakes late.

That Pete seems incapable of recognizing any of this is the problem.