Who wins NL MVP??

[MilkSpiller22]

2. Played only 157 games(less than the other 2 players)

that was a little funny

Well, not really... Votto playing 162 games and Goldshmidt playing 160 games is a huge positive... anyone who says that games played is not one of the most important stat if not the most important stat does not know what they are talking about...

 

[StanMarsh51]

Well, not really... Votto playing 162 games and Goldshmidt playing 160 games is a huge positive... anyone who says that games played is not one of the most important stat if not the most important stat does not know what they are talking about...

Doesn't it also lead to the issue that some positions are more physically demanding for others?

I mean, we see a lot more 1B play 160, 155, 150 games than CFers who do that.

In MVP races, do you hold it against a catcher that plays 145 games, when that's considered a lot for a catcher?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Doesn't it also lead to the issue that some positions are more physically demanding for others?

I mean, we see a lot more 1B play 160, 155, 150 games than CFers who do that.

In MVP races, do you hold it against a catcher that plays 145 games, when that's considered a lot for a catcher?

I do slightly take it as a disadvantage for catchers to play less games... I calculate offensive numbers the same for all offensive players... Of course defense is also a factor, but i dont let it factor in on the offensive side of the calculations...

 

[broncosmitty]

Cutch didn't even get a day off each month. Had he played 140some games Id think it could factor. But we're really splitting hairs with 162, 160 and 157. Especially given that Votto and Goldy are first baseman.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Cutch didn't even get a day off each month. Had he played 140some games Id think it could factor. But we're really splitting hairs with 162, 160 and 157. Especially given that Votto and Goldy are first baseman.

I dont disagree... All these players deserve MVP, I was just putting in a negative stat... And i do think the player who played the least games should be a negative against them... clearly not a big negative...

 

[da55bums]

Well, not really... Votto playing 162 games and Goldshmidt playing 160 games is a huge positive... anyone who says that games played is not one of the most important stat if not the most important stat does not know what they are talking about...

lol, your talking 3 games and 5 games difference...what 12 to 20 at bats.......it was just a little funny when you first put it in...two physically demanding, runnging and diving 1b have 3 to 5 more games over the CF...who would have guessed

Now, you justifing it makes it hilarious. 15 games maybe, 20 ok now your talking...nah...3 to 5 games...or about 2 or 3 PERCENT of the season....lol

 

[Arizona_Sting]

1. Goldy
2. Cutch
3. Kershaw

No one else should even be in the discussion.

 

[soxfan1468927]

I do slightly take it as a disadvantage for catchers to play less games... I calculate offensive numbers the same for all offensive players... Of course defense is also a factor, but i dont let it factor in on the offensive side of the calculations...

He's more talking positional value, not defense.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

He's more talking positional value, not defense.

I understand... when i do my calculations i do offense and defense separately... then at the end i combine them 2... position played is a statistic for the defense calculation, which i do give an advantage for the more difficult on the body positions...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

1. Goldy
2. Cutch
3. Kershaw

No one else should even be in the discussion.

Kershaw might get the 3rd most votes, but there is no way he will win... 16 wins is just not enough for a pitcher to win the MVP award...

And to not even discuss Votto is definitely you being wrong.... Flat out wrong...

 

[StanMarsh51]

I understand... when i do my calculations i do offense and defense separately... then at the end i combine them 2... position played is a statistic for the defense calculation, which i do give an advantage for the more difficult on the body positions...

For positional value however, the player's position should to be taken into account with his offensive numbers, not separately

I mean, a catcher who hits .290/25/80 with a .900 OPS is more valuable on offense than a 1B who hits .293/27/84 with a .910 OPS, before even taking into account how they are on defense....the obvious reason being that a 1B with those numbers are not too difficult to find, while you likely won't be able to find another catcher with those numbers.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

For positional value however, the player's position should to be taken into account with his offensive numbers, not separately

I mean, a catcher who hits .290/25/80 with a .900 OPS is more valuable on offense than a 1B who hits .293/27/84 with a .910 OPS....the obvious reason being that a 1B with those numbers are not too difficult to find, while you likely won't be able to find another catcher with those numbers.

As long as I give an advantage why would it matter where. Until there is a way to find the true difference I am not going to create a formula to let defense position affect offense. I do believe that they are different. So why allow defense to affect offense. It should only affect player as the whole.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I really do not understand the lack of love for votto to win the 2013 MVP... Can someone explain it to me...

 

[element1286]

I really do not understand the lack of love for votto to win the 2013 MVP... Can someone explain it to me...

I'd put him second among first basemen, still don't see how McCutchen doesn't win this. Don't even see how it's close either, using new school evaluations (WAR, positional value, defense) or old school (best player on the playoff teams) way of picking.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

I'd put him second among first basemen, still don't see how McCutchen doesn't win this. Don't even see how it's close either, using new school evaluations (WAR, positional value, defense) or old school (best player on the playoff teams) way of picking.

Well, votto made the playoffs too and both Votto and McCuthen were both above average defensively at their position, neither of them were elite... The only reason McCutchen's WAR is so high is because he is a CF. To me, the 3 players Votto, Goldshmidt, and McCutchen are equally deserving... the only reason McCutchen will win over the other 2 is because pittsburgh was the media darlings this season...
Even though under my calculations Votto wins, i would certainly not complain if McCutchen wins... I just want to know why there is no love for him to be even discussed to win... Many even say he is not top 5...

 

[powerchord86]

Goldy gets it.

 

[Darkstone42]

McCutchen was almost as good as Votto at the plate this year, but his baserunning was so much better than Votto's that their offensive contributions aren't as close as the hitting would suggest. McCutchen was also better defensively at a tougher defensive position.

There is an argument which could be made that Goldschmidt's power made him more valuable than McCutchen, but that argument doesn't hold for Votto (and I think Votto is overall a better hitter than Goldschmidt). Over the course of their careers, Votto has probably been the best, but we're talking about the 2013 season, and Votto is behind at least McCutchen and Goldschmidt, and probably Kershaw and Molina in terms of MVP consideration, based on the full bodies of each of those players' work this season, and what each of them meant to their respective teams.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

McCutchen was almost as good as Votto at the plate this year, but his baserunning was so much better than Votto's that their offensive contributions aren't as close as the hitting would suggest. McCutchen was also better defensively at a tougher defensive position.

There is an argument which could be made that Goldschmidt's power made him more valuable than McCutchen, but that argument doesn't hold for Votto (and I think Votto is overall a better hitter than Goldschmidt). Over the course of their careers, Votto has probably been the best, but we're talking about the 2013 season, and Votto is behind at least McCutchen and Goldschmidt, and probably Kershaw and Molina in terms of MVP consideration, based on the full bodies of each of those players' work this season, and what each of them meant to their respective teams.

I 100% disagree with you here... First off McCutchen's baserunning does not compensate to make him better offensively than Votto... It is not like McCutchen stole 30+ bases... Votto's OBP was significantly better than the rest of NL MVP candidates...

Molina and Kershaw do not belong in this conversation at all... Kershaw only won 16 games, that is not high enough for him to be included in an award usually dominated by offense...
And Molina was not even the most valuable offensive player for STL, that belongs to matt carpenter(who i have ranked 4th in the MVP race).

 

[element1286]

Well, votto made the playoffs too and both Votto and McCuthen were both above average defensively at their position, neither of them were elite... The only reason McCutchen's WAR is so high is because he is a CF. To me, the 3 players Votto, Goldshmidt, and McCutchen are equally deserving... the only reason McCutchen will win over the other 2 is because pittsburgh was the media darlings this season...
Even though under my calculations Votto wins, i would certainly not complain if McCutchen wins... I just want to know why there is no love for him to be even discussed to win... Many even say he is not top 5...

Well since positional value is a thing, not sure how you could just discount it. Plus McCutchen's wRC+ was 155, Votto's was 156. There was essentially no difference between them offensively.

I'd put Votto top 5 for sure.

 

[navamind]

Well, votto made the playoffs too and both Votto and McCuthen were both above average defensively at their position, neither of them were elite... The only reason McCutchen's WAR is so high is because he is a CF. To me, the 3 players Votto, Goldshmidt, and McCutchen are equally deserving... the only reason McCutchen will win over the other 2 is because pittsburgh was the media darlings this season...
Even though under my calculations Votto wins, i would certainly not complain if McCutchen wins... I just want to know why there is no love for him to be even discussed to win... Many even say he is not top 5...

And it's a pretty good reason.