Who wins NL MVP??

[MilkSpiller22]

I think catchers are inherently that valuable, and when one can hit, too, it's huge. Molina bought his young pitchers a lot of strikes with his pitch framing, controlled the running game to the point that opponents didn't even try to run for the most part, was a wall behind the plate so his pitchers could bury two-strike pitches with confidence, and, on top of all of that, was in contention for the NL batting title. He provided elite offense for a catcher and was the best defensive catcher. Only two catchers were better offensively this season than Molina, Mauer and Santana, and the latter was only just barely better (about the same, really), but Molina was the undisputed best defensive catcher in the Majors (again) at a defensive position which is more important than any other.

He was certainly at least a top five candidate, and even though Carpenter had a better offensive season (and a larger WAR), I don't think any player on the Cardinals meant more to that team than Yadier Molina.

But if he automatically gets a bid because he is a catcher then whats the point of even playing?? I am not bashing him, but in no way did he have a better season than carpenter... Nor votto, mccutchen and goldy... And i dont believe that Yadier was more important to the team this season than carpenter... It sounds like it is all about the intangibles... but how do you measure the intangibles??

 

[Arizona_Sting]

Darkstone, this is OT but I see you're a Wildcats fan! BEAR DOWN

You should check out the Wildcat forums, we're doing live game threads and have some great discussions going on over there. A lot of Wildcat fans have migrated over there from ESPN. Hope to see you there!

 

[Darkstone42]

Darkstone, this is OT but I see you're a Wildcats fan! BEAR DOWN

You should check out the Wildcat forums, we're doing live game threads and have some great discussions going on over there. A lot of Wildcat fans have migrated over there from ESPN. Hope to see you there!

Yeah, I pretty much only care about the baseball and softball teams, though. I don't even know the football team's record. Actually, I usually find out they have a home game when I have to deal with it to get home from work or to get into campus on a Saturday. I heard today that homecoming is this weekend, but I don't know which day the game is, who they're playing, or anything else. I'm just dreading the traffic nightmares I'll have to deal with biking home Friday night.

So I'll stop by closer to baseball season, but I really don't like football very much, so you probably won't see me in those threads.

 

[da55bums]

Molina doesn't automatically get a bid because he is a catcher, get real.....Carpenter should get a bid for what scoring the most runs...that others hit him in to get?

Molina arguably could have won NL MVP last season statistically...Carpenter was important this year but without Molina, Carpenter doesn't take the Cardinals places Molina takes the Cardinals. The Cardinals were pretty good before Carpenter.

Molina has been the Rock for the Cardinals incredible pitching as well as the rock for the Cardinals offense and I still think he was exactly equal to Posey last year.

 

[navamind]

Molina doesn't automatically get a bid because he is a catcher, get real.....Carpenter should get a bid for what scoring the most runs...that others hit him in to get?

Molina arguably could have won NL MVP last season statistically...Carpenter was important this year but without Molina, Carpenter doesn't take the Cardinals places Molina takes the Cardinals. The Cardinals were pretty good before Carpenter.

Molina has been the Rock for the Cardinals incredible pitching as well as the rock for the Cardinals offense and I still think he was exactly equal to Posey last year.

Carpenter should get a bid because he hit like an All-Star 1B at 2nd baseman.

 

[broncosmitty]

Santana hit under .250 as a catcher this year. He and Mauer combined to catch 27 more games than Molina. Until I realized where the three top offensive catchers in baseball stacked up, as far as games caught, I hadn't thought about Yadier as much of a candidate. (Different leagues, but still...)But his season is that much more impressive when you look at what he did offensively, as an actual catcher. And a great one.

 

[da55bums]

Carpenter should get a bid because he hit like an All-Star 1B at 2nd baseman.

oh don't get me wrong, I got Carpenter before the season started, actually had him last year in one league and was BEGGING them to put him at 2b for fantasy/selfish reasons....I LOVE the guy...

but an all star 1b is really going very old school with John Olerud type numbers....318 ave....HR every 57 abs...but I see you point....but the Cardinals MVP on their OWN team is still Molina....he has been for more than just this season...the Cardinals could make it to the WS with Molina and no Carpenter...the vice versa is not the case if you were to put percentage or odds to it.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

oh don't get me wrong, I got Carpenter before the season started, actually had him last year in one league and was BEGGING them to put him at 2b for fantasy/selfish reasons....I LOVE the guy...

but an all star 1b is really going very old school with John Olerud type numbers....318 ave....HR every 57 abs...but I see you point....but the Cardinals MVP on their OWN team is still Molina.... he has been for more than just this season...the Cardinals could make it to the WS with Molina and no Carpenter...the vice versa is not the case if you were to put percentage or odds to it.

So, the intangibles of molina is what makes him an MVP favorite... I understand he is the best defensive catcher in baseball, but how do we know that it was his management of the pitching staff that made the pitching so good?? And are we giving him too much credit for the pitching staff?? Not trying to take anything away from him but i just dont see how he was more valuable than Matt Carpenter this season... And who cares about the past seasons, when we talk about MVP this season?? is that really a factor??
Would i rather have him on my team than Carpenter?? of course... But i just dont see the argument saying that Molina had the better season!!!

 

[Darkstone42]

So, the intangibles of molina is what makes him an MVP favorite... I understand he is the best defensive catcher in baseball, but how do we know that it was his management of the pitching staff that made the pitching so good?? And are we giving him too much credit for the pitching staff?? Not trying to take anything away from him but i just dont see how he was more valuable than Matt Carpenter this season... And who cares about the past seasons, when we talk about MVP this season?? is that really a factor??
Would i rather have him on my team than Carpenter?? of course... But i just dont see the argument saying that Molina had the better season!!!

Pitch framing and game management are not intangibles. Pitch framing is a quantifiable skill. Game management can be modeled qualitatively (looking at pitch effectiveness in various counts to evaluate how well a pitcher is choosing his pitches to maximize his "stuff"). They have a very real impact on the events of a baseball game, and specifically on the performances of the starting pitchers.

Everyone in the league knows Molina makes his pitchers better. Everyone knows Molina is better at making his pitchers better than anyone else. And it's shown in how deep the Cardinals seem to be at starting pitcher. Everyone they send out there succeeds. The effect is at least partly from Molina. Throw in the fact that he doesn't let the ball get by him and that he throws out an obscene rate of runners (i.e. generates a large number of extra outs while significantly reducing the advancement of baserunners), and you have a genuine impact player defensively. Throw in contention for a batting title despite playing a position with very few good offensive players, and you have a true MVP candidate.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Pitch framing and game management are not intangibles. Pitch framing is a quantifiable skill. Game management can be modeled qualitatively (looking at pitch effectiveness in various counts to evaluate how well a pitcher is choosing his pitches to maximize his "stuff"). They have a very real impact on the events of a baseball game, and specifically on the performances of the starting pitchers.

Everyone in the league knows Molina makes his pitchers better. Everyone knows Molina is better at making his pitchers better than anyone else. And it's shown in how deep the Cardinals seem to be at starting pitcher. Everyone they send out there succeeds. The effect is at least partly from Molina. Throw in the fact that he doesn't let the ball get by him and that he throws out an obscene rate of runners (i.e. generates a large number of extra outs while significantly reducing the advancement of baserunners), and you have a genuine impact player defensively. Throw in contention for a batting title despite playing a position with very few good offensive players, and you have a true MVP candidate.

I know that Yadier molina is the best defensively, but arent you overvaluing him??? So we are to give Molina more credit for the pitchers success than the actual pitchers?? thats what it sounds like... Is he really that good of a defensive catcher that he is an MVP favorite solely because of his defense?? Offensively he was not even top 10...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

and of the 5 NL playoff teams the cardinals had the worst ERA and WHIP... so why are rewarding the catcher for handling the rotation so well??

 

[StanMarsh51]

I know that Yadier molina is the best defensively, but arent you overvaluing him??? So we are to give Molina more credit for the pitchers success than the actual pitchers?? thats what it sounds like... Is he really that good of a defensive catcher that he is an MVP favorite solely because of his defense?? Offensively he was not even top 10...

It's moreso that you're undervaluing him, which is a function of how you define 'value'

Catcher is the weakest hitting position on the field. A catcher who hits well, therefore provides a lot of value before even getting into how good/bad he is defensively. The obvious reason being is that catcher is the most demanding position on the field, and that they're more likely to wear down and tire out etc over the course of a season.


Here's the example Dragon on here gives whenever arguing 'value,' which I think is a good one...

Every team needs to have 6 guys and 3 girls. Every guy in the league in the ballpark of .350 with a 1.000 OPS and every girl in the league except Cindy hits .150 with a .500 OPS. Cindy hits .250 with a .750 OPS. Are one of the men the most valuable in the league, or would it be Cindy, even though she didn't hit as well as any of the men?

 

[The Derski]

Molina only played in 136 games.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Molina only played in 136 games.

And? How many games do you think the typical catcher plays?

 

[MilkSpiller22]

It's moreso that you're undervaluing him, which is a function of how you define 'value'

Catcher is the weakest hitting position on the field. A catcher who hits well, therefore provides a lot of value before even getting into how good/bad he is defensively. The obvious reason being is that catcher is the most demanding position on the field, and that they're more likely to wear down and tire out etc over the course of a season.


Here's the example Dragon on here gives whenever arguing 'value,' which I think is a good one...

Every team needs to have 6 guys and 3 girls. Every guy in the league in the ballpark of .350 with a 1.000 OPS and every girl in the league except Cindy hits .150 with a .500 OPS. Cindy hits .250 with a .750 OPS. Are one of the men the most valuable in the league, or would it be Cindy, even though she didn't hit as well as any of the men?

First off that is a totally different situation than we are talking about... But i will play along... If every guy hits the same and every girl hits the same except for Cindy then yes Cindy is the most valuable... but that is assuming everyone hits the same which is just absurd...

Let me ask you a question using your example with a couple differences-
Cindy is the best girl in the league- .250 and .750 which is .1 and .25 better than every other girl
Bobby is the best Male- hits .375 and 1.150 which is .025 and .15 better than every other male

Who would you rather have up in any important time, who would you rather have on your team??
I believe we would all say Mike, even though the differential is much smaller...

 

[MilkSpiller22]

and yes i used bobby because he is the counterpart to cindy in the brady bunch!!!

 

[StanMarsh51]

First off that is a totally different situation than we are talking about... But i will play along... If every guy hits the same and every girl hits the same except for Cindy then yes Cindy is the most valuable... but that is assuming everyone hits the same which is just absurd...

Let me ask you a question using your example with a couple differences-
Cindy is the best girl in the league- .250 and .750 which is .1 and .25 better than every other girl
Mike is the best Male- hits .375 and 1.150 which is .025 and .15 better than every other male

Who would you rather have up in any important time, who would you rather have on your team??
I believe we would all say Mike, even though the differential is much smaller...

Cindy's average was 66.7% better and OPS was 50% better than the average girl
Mike's average was 7.1% better and OPS was 15% better than the average guy

I'd rather have Cindy on the team. If you don't have Cindy, her replacement would be a bigger downgrade than Mike compared to his replacement.

 

[The Derski]

And? How many games do you think the typical catcher plays?

Plus Matt Carpenter was more important to that team than Molina was.

 

[Darkstone42]

I know that Yadier molina is the best defensively, but arent you overvaluing him??? So we are to give Molina more credit for the pitchers success than the actual pitchers?? thats what it sounds like... Is he really that good of a defensive catcher that he is an MVP favorite solely because of his defense?? Offensively he was not even top 10...

Using the subset of playoff teams is not entirely convincing, since the playoff teams had the best pitching in baseball overall. Beyond that, the performances of guys like Wacha and Kelly exceeding expectations. The Cardinals have good pitchers, but their staff, overall, performed above expectations. And that happens every year with Molina behind the dish. It's a clear trend over the course of several years.

 

[element1286]

They should announce Awards during the World Series, would be much better for the sport.