Who wins NL MVP??

[Darkstone42]

Molina only played in 136 games.

Molina played a pretty typical number of games for a catcher who only catches. Most of the catchers ahead of him on that list also DH or play 1B. Molina was also hurt for a couple weeks (neck injury), otherwise he likely would have played somewhere in the range of 140-145 games, just to give some indication as to how often he plays.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Cindy's average was 66.7% better and OPS was 50% better than the average girl
Mike's average was 7.1% better and OPS was 15% better than the average guy

I'd rather have Cindy on the team. If you don't have Cindy, her replacement would be a bigger downgrade than Mike compared to his replacement.

Your right i should have made the differentials a little less... But my point is still there, that i would rather have the best player in the league than the best girl in the league... The best player will change the game by himself... nobody is going to fear the girl in this example even if she is better than the rest of the girls since she still is not as good as any of the males... The best player might get pitchers to pitch differently to him, or the previous player...


But anyway, so if i understand this correctly you think molina deserves to be a favorite for MVP solely because he is a catcher...

I will bring up again that the cardinals had the worst pitching of all the NL playoff teams in the regular season... With that logic shouldnt the mvp go to the team with the best pitching which was atlanta??

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Using the subset of playoff teams is not entirely convincing, since the playoff teams had the best pitching in baseball overall. Beyond that, the performances of guys like Wacha and Kelly exceeding expectations. The Cardinals have good pitchers, but their staff, overall, performed above expectations. And that happens every year with Molina behind the dish. It's a clear trend over the course of several years.

If that happens every year with molina and his pitchers then arent you underrating the STL pitchers??

 

[AnotherLevel55]

The 3 finalist for the award is right on. IMO the winner should be Goldy.

Anyone that says Molina Shouldn't be that high have no clue about this game. And in no way shape of form is Carpenter more important to the Cards than Molina.

 

[AnotherLevel55]

Your right i should have made the differentials a little less... But my point is still there, that i would rather have the best player in the league than the best girl in the league... The best player will change the game by himself... nobody is going to fear the girl in this example even if she is better than the rest of the girls since she still is not as good as any of the males... The best player might get pitchers to pitch differently to him, or the previous player...


But anyway, so if i understand this correctly you think molina deserves to be a favorite for MVP solely because he is a catcher...

I will bring up again that the cardinals had the worst pitching of all the NL playoff teams in the regular season... With that logic shouldnt the mvp go to the team with the best pitching which was atlanta??

If Atlanta had Molina for the past few years, I guarantee they have at least 1 WS title to show for it, Molina steals strike for pitchers, McCann does the opposite, he takes pitches right down the middle and is so quick to get the ball back to the pitcher that they don't even get the strike call. Give me Molina 1000x over McCann or any other catcher in this league.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

If Atlanta had Molina for the past few years, I guarantee they have at least 1 WS title to show for it, Molina steals strike for pitchers, McCann does the opposite, he takes pitches right down the middle and is so quick to get the ball back to the pitcher that they don't even get the strike call. Give me Molina 1000x over McCann or any other catcher in this league.

Your missing the point on why i brought up Atlanta... Nobody argues that Molina is not the best Catcher defensively in baseball... But what does that actually mean, and how important is it?? If Molina is a MVP favorite solely because of the position he plays then that is saying that you credit the pitchers good seasons to molina... But the team had the 5th best pitching staff in the NL... They made the playoffs because they had the best offense in the NL by a large margin... Not because of there pitching... So why should his defensive numbers make such a big difference if he was not even a top 10 offensive player??

And nobody is saying that Molina is not the most important player for the cardinals for the future and in the past... All i am saying is that carpenter was more important for that teams success in 2013...

 

[da55bums]

I know that Yadier molina is the best defensively, but arent you overvaluing him??? So we are to give Molina more credit for the pitchers success than the actual pitchers?? thats what it sounds like... Is he really that good of a defensive catcher that he is an MVP favorite solely because of his defense?? Offensively he was not even top 10...

not solely because of his defense? well, when your defense is a 6 time GG winner your talking Great defense and over 500 abs for a catcher, batting .319, 12 hr, 80 rbi..that isn't crap in any world....will win Silver Slugger award this year also.

Just love the point also made, Stl pitching just keeps to remain one of the tops in the league, oddly since Molina became catcher.

could also add....the voters thought Molina was important also...maybe for value this year as well as past but finally noticed who the MVP of the Cardinals continues to be over the years. Yogi Berraish or Pudgeish.

 

[Darkstone42]

If that happens every year with molina and his pitchers then arent you underrating the STL pitchers??

The St. Louis pitchers are good. Molina makes them better. I didn't say they weren't good, I said they exceeded expectations. Even high expectations can be exceeded.

And we're not saying Molina should be the MVP because he's a catcher. We're saying it because he's the best catcher in baseball overall, between durability, offense, and defense. And he happens to be so elite at his position, the most important position, that he, having yet another very good year, should absolutely be a finalist for MVP. It's not because he's a catcher, it's because he's Yadier Molina.

Also, you never answered my question as to what you thought a replacement player was.

 

[The Derski]

Goldy just won a Silver Slugger today to go along with his Hank Aaron award and his Gold Glove. Up next MVP.

 

[StanMarsh51]

Your missing the point on why i brought up Atlanta... Nobody argues that Molina is not the best Catcher defensively in baseball... But what does that actually mean, and how important is it?? If Molina is a MVP favorite solely because of the position he plays then that is saying that you credit the pitchers good seasons to molina... But the team had the 5th best pitching staff in the NL... They made the playoffs because they had the best offense in the NL by a large margin... Not because of there pitching... So why should his defensive numbers make such a big difference if he was not even a top 10 offensive player??

And nobody is saying that Molina is not the most important player for the cardinals for the future and in the past... All i am saying is that carpenter was more important for that teams success in 2013...

He does get some credit for having a staff filled with rookies/unproven pitchers end up being the in the top 5 staffs in the NL. The pitchers get some credit themselves, and so does the coaching staff....how much credit each gets, that's debatable.

One thing that's interesting...Molina's catcher ERA (cERA) was 3.17 this season, which was 3rd in the majors, 0.01 behind #2. The other 2 catchers on the Cardinals had a 4.11 ERA (in 267 IP caught) and a 5.02 catchers ERA (in 75 IP caught).

So do you think it's a mere coincidence that the pitchers' ERA was drastically lower when Molina caught, or could there be something to it?

 

[broncosmitty]

I'd have to know who caught for Jake Westbrook's starts before Any conclusions are drawn. (Or Mitchell Boggs' relief appearances)

 

[StanMarsh51]

I'd have to know who caught for Jake Westbrook's starts before Any conclusions are drawn. (Or Mitchell Boggs' relief appearances)

Quite an interesting disparity w/Westbrook:

With Molina catching - 3.40 ERA, .278 opponents avg
With everyone else catching - 11.08 ERA , .363 opponents avg

He gave up 23 earned runs in 18.2 innings when non-Molina catchers caught him this year...yikes

 

[broncosmitty]

Quite an interesting disparity w/Westbrook:

With Molina catching - 3.40 ERA, .278 opponents avg
With everyone else catching - 12.05 ERA , .363 opponents avg

He gave up 23 earned runs in 18.2 innings when non-Molina catchers caught him this year...yikes

Wow!!! That is ridiculous. What was St. Louis record without him behind the plate?

 

[LALakersboy24.7]

Good Thing Paul Gold:ss: wont wint it

 

[StanMarsh51]

Wow!!! That is ridiculous. What was St. Louis record without him behind the plate?

Yea, I looked at Wainwright's splits and saw a huge disparity as well...
2.50 ERA with Molina catching him in 2013
6.75 ERA with others catching him


And regarding the Cards record, they went 85-51 in games he played in, and 12-14 in games he didn't play in.
Yadier Molina 2013 Batting Gamelogs - Baseball-Reference.com

These certainly aren't helping MikeSpiller's argument that Molina shouldn't even be a top 10 MVP candidate.

 

[broncosmitty]

The fact they have a losing record without Molina, but tied for the best record in baseball overall, is very telling.

 

[DragonfromTO]

Yea, I looked at Wainwright's splits and saw a huge disparity as well...
2.50 ERA with Molina catching him in 2013
6.75 ERA with others catching him


And regarding the Cards record, they went 85-51 in games he played in, and 12-14 in games he didn't play in.
Yadier Molina 2013 Batting Gamelogs - Baseball-Reference.com

These certainly aren't helping MikeSpiller's argument that Molina shouldn't even be a top 10 MVP candidate.

I don't doubt that Molina has an effect, but as I'm sure you understand Stan some of that is a small sample size issue.

 

[DragonfromTO]

First off that is a totally different situation than we are talking about... But i will play along... If every guy hits the same and every girl hits the same except for Cindy then yes Cindy is the most valuable... but that is assuming everyone hits the same which is just absurd...

Let me ask you a question using your example with a couple differences-
Cindy is the best girl in the league- .250 and .750 which is .1 and .25 better than every other girl
Bobby is the best Male- hits .375 and 1.150 which is .025 and .15 better than every other male

Who would you rather have up in any important time, who would you rather have on your team??
I believe we would all say Mike, even though the differential is much smaller...

The answer to the first question is Bobby (how'd you forget his name just two sentences later? He can't be that good if you can't remember him ). The answer to the second question is probably Cindy (I'd have to do some math but I suspect that's the case). But the two questions are asking different things. If the MVP award was meant to be the answer to the first question then we'd be giving it to Hanley Ramirez this year and calling it a day.

We'd all rather have Bobby up with the game on the line but this isn't basketball and you don't get to pick and choose who comes up in that situation, they're both going to get a similar number of ABs and if you're required to play 3 women and 6 men at all times then they're somewhat similarly likely to come up in that situation. And when they do, relatively speaking the woman you have instead of Cindy is probably going to lose you more games than Bobby is going to win you.

 

[MilkSpiller22]

The answer to the first question is Bobby (how'd you forget his name just two sentences later? He can't be that good if you can't remember him ). The answer to the second question is probably Cindy (I'd have to do some math but I suspect that's the case). But the two questions are asking different things. If the MVP award was meant to be the answer to the first question then we'd be giving it to Hanley Ramirez this year and calling it a day.

We'd all rather have Bobby up with the game on the line but this isn't basketball and you don't get to pick and choose who comes up in that situation, they're both going to get a similar number of ABs and if you're required to play 3 women and 6 men at all times then they're somewhat similarly likely to come up in that situation. And when they do, relatively speaking the woman you have instead of Cindy is probably going to lose you more games than Bobby is going to win you.

\

It was originally mike- if you look at darks comment he linked it before the edit... I edited because i wanted a better brady bunch reference!!!

 

[MilkSpiller22]

Yea, I looked at Wainwright's splits and saw a huge disparity as well...
2.50 ERA with Molina catching him in 2013
6.75 ERA with others catching him


And regarding the Cards record, they went 85-51 in games he played in, and 12-14 in games he didn't play in.
Yadier Molina 2013 Batting Gamelogs - Baseball-Reference.com

These certainly aren't helping MikeSpiller's argument that Molina shouldn't even be a top 10 MVP candidate.

I didnt say he was not a top 10 MVP candidate- i said he was not a top 10 offensive player... And i think that since Matt carpenter is a top 5 offensive player he was more valuable to the 2013 STL Cardinals. Especially for a team that made that was so good because of offense... They had the 5th best ERA and WHIP in the NL, but had the best offense by a significant margin...