Who Will Sherman Bitch at Now?

[The Derski]

LL is dropping some truth bombs up in here yall

 

[Great Dayne]

LL is dropping some truth bombs up in here yall

While Sherman is dropping F bombs on his team and the media.

 

[Uhsplit]

As stated I went by the team depth chart as indicated on each teams website. The packers as well have back ups through all the D positions that get significant playing time. The back ups are back ups for a reason. They are not as good as the starters. So if back ups take over there will be a decrease in talent compared to the starting players which will make the unit not as good. There was no statement made about the quality of the level of play from the back ups other than it must not be as good as the starters otherwise they would be starting.

I myself just find it quite odd that Seattle has not been able to draft any starting defensive players in the last 4 years. They hit it it good or maybe it was luck from 2010 to 2012 when most of the current starters were obtained by the Seahawks. But since that time Schneider have not been nearly as effective.

My personal opinion of why I feel there would be a drop off in talent if the back ups were playing on the Seattle D would be from comments I have seen shared by Seattle fans saying without Thomas there is a big drop off. When Kam was out many said he is hard to replace., when Bennet was out there was a big difference is what I saw was being said. If there were quality back ups my guess is there would not be as big of a drop off as Seattle fans have been taking about.

The other reason is because team Management has not restocked the defensive back ups through drafting or by finding undrafted free agents for the defense starting in year 2013 which is the year after most of those good players were taken.

We can review that here.

In 2013 only one drafted player is left on the team and it is an offensive player, also in 2013 there are no undrafted free agents that were obtained that year that are currently on the team. So in 2013 no help at all for future defensive help or back ups.

In 2014 there are 3 players drafted still left on the team, one is Britt on the O line the other two are defensive with Marsh and Pierre-Louis. One is listed as a back up and one is not good enough to be a back up and is listed as 3rd team. When looking at undrafted free agents in 2014 there is one defensive player still on the team that being Coyle who is a back up. So in 2014 there are 3 defensive players added. Marsh, Pierre-Louis, and Coyle

IN 2015 there are 3 players still on the team from that draft. One is on defense and that is Clark If we look at the undrafted free agents there no players on the team on offense or defense so in 2015 one player Clark

In 2016 there are currently 7 players from the draft still on the team. The problem is only one of them is on defense and he is a back up. Undrafted free agents in 2016 bring in one defensive player Powell who is listed as 3rd team. In 2016 there were 2 defensive players added Reed and Powel

When looking at years 2013 - 2016 the four years after the good players were obtained it shows you have added 6 younger defensive players as back ups as there were no starters added in those years. Marsh, Pierre-Louis, Coyle, Clark, Reed, and Powell.

With a defense having 11 players and the Seahawks only getting 6 back ups in the last 4 years that are on the team from the draft or undrafted free agents it does not look like there are enough back ups to replace those aging veterans. If you cant find them in the draft or undrafted free agents about the only other place to get them is by signing free agents. The problem is they come at a cost and that is not as easy to do when you have a $20 million dollar QB

When trying to maintain a team it generally helps to bring in young players that can be developed over 2 or 3 years so that they can replace those getting older. That does not appear to be happening on Seattle with so many players in their 30s. When you look at the back up help for the line backers and secondary when one is hurt all I read from Seattle fans is that the back up is a drop off in talent.

Why dont you tell me how you feel those 6 defensive players stack up in comparison to the player they would replace if they were starting?

Dude, the poster you just referenced just named Reed, Marsh, and Clark. These are very decent players getting solid minutes.
The team didn't have a need to replace Sherm, Kam, Wagner, Wright, ET, Avril, or Bennett.
You are reaching...

 

[Uhsplit]

LL is dropping some truth bombs up in here yall

Yeah, he's the bomb.

 

[LambeauLegs]

No offense, but that was too much to read.
Your #'s might be right, but they are missing other incentives.
Spotrac is well known.
NFL Defense Spending - Cap

I never did dispute Seattle's age.

The numbers on the site I used included salary, roster bonus and work out bonus and used the same for both teams

 

[LambeauLegs]

Dude, the poster you just referenced just named Reed, Marsh, and Clark. These are very decent players getting solid minutes.
The team didn't have a need to replace Sherm, Kam, Wagner, Wright, ET, Avril, or Bennett.
You are reaching...

The point is the defense has regressed in the last 4 years as I am sure you saw in the post showing the stats over the last 4 years, You will need to look at replacing Sherm, Kam, Wagner, ET Avril and Bennet. As you mentioned you agree they are getting older.

The whole point is that there is not near the talent of those 6 players being developed under them because of the inept drafting or signing of undrafted free agent players as was shown in this thread. if you cant find them by drafting them are you going to sign free agents to replace them for big money? Your team needs to draft players on the Offense as that is the week spot on your team with no running game and a sucky O line.

What should Schneider do? Draft to help fix the offense and protect the $20 mill dollar QB? Or should he draft to try to find players to replace those aging defensive players that can have time to develop? The draft and signing of undrafted free agents has sucked for your defense since 2013

When those 6 players you mentioned get to the end of their current contracts will they stay and play cheap as a discount or try to get the most money they can for their last contract? As they already have a ring

 

[LambeauLegs]

Yeah, he's the bomb.

You did not agree with my statement "The Seattle Defense is aging is over paid and regressing"

Lets take this one at a time

The aging you did agree with so that is one of 3.

Number 2 is being overpaid. The Salary figures show just a comparison to GB and in that case comparing starters Seattle is $10 mil more than GB when using Sam Shields #'s. Without Shields there is roughly a $20 mill lower figure for GB which will be the situation next year. I am guessing Seattles numbers wont drop much next year as I guess Thomas is not going to retire. Now how Seattle compares to teams other than GB I am not sure and have no interest in checking but would assume that the Seattle starters on defense compared to other starting defenses in the NFL is on the higher side.

Now as far as the regression of the defense I guess if I was a fan of a team that had one of the highest paid defenses that regression would be a bad thing. It would not be a good thing to pay high wages and then get worse production from them. But when looking at the stats over the last 4 years they got worse each year so yes there was regression

Lets look at the stats:

2013 = Ave points allowed = 14.4
Total yards allowed = 273.6
Passing Yards = 172
Rushing yards = 101.6

2014 = Ave points allowed = 15.9
Total yards allowed = 267.1
Passing yards = 185.6
Rushing yards = 81.5

2015 = Ave points allowed = 17.3
Total yards allowed = 291.9
Passing yards = 210.2
Rushing yards = 81.5

2016 = Ave points allowed = 17.9
Total yards allowed = 323.11
Passing yards = 228.1
Rushing yards = 95

So there you have it all the points I made are correct

 

[LambeauLegs]

No offense, but that was too much to read.
Your #'s might be right, but they are missing other incentives.
Spotrac is well known.
NFL Defense Spending - Cap

I never did dispute Seattle's age.

My whole comparison was comparing the starting 11 players on defense for Seattle and GB. I was not comparing with all defensive players. The starters are the ones that need to be replaced. So I compared the salaries of each teams starting defenders based on the depth charts from each teams website

 

[Uhsplit]

The point is the defense has regressed in the last 4 years as I am sure you saw in the post showing the stats over the last 4 years, You will need to look at replacing Sherm, Kam, Wagner, ET Avril and Bennet. As you mentioned you agree they are getting older.

The whole point is that there is not near the talent of those 6 players being developed under them because of the inept drafting or signing of undrafted free agent players as was shown in this thread. if you cant find them by drafting them are you going to sign free agents to replace them for big money? Your team needs to draft players on the Offense as that is the week spot on your team with no running game and a sucky O line.

What should Schneider do? Draft to help fix the offense and protect the $20 mill dollar QB? Or should he draft to try to find players to replace those aging defensive players that can have time to develop? The draft and signing of undrafted free agents has sucked for your defense since 2013

When those 6 players you mentioned get to the end of their current contracts will they stay and play cheap as a discount or try to get the most money they can for their last contract? As they already have a ring

Reaching................

 

[Uhsplit]

Methinks you are overly concerned with all things Seahawks.

 

[LambeauLegs]

Methinks you are overly concerned with all things Seahawks.

I just like to share clear facts and let people decide what they think. if I see what I feel is BS I will try to show why I feel it is BS in my mind. If others dont agree all is good but I show why I feel the way I do.

NOw that you see what is really going on you call it a reach which is all good

You just better hope there is a plan to help the defense. It is doing fine now but is not dominating as it use to be and I dont see any younger players coming in that re better than who the starters are now or they would be starting. The Seattle defense use to be able to be a scoring defense that helped the offense out. How many defensive scores have there been this year to help out a struggling lower rated offense with a bad o line and no running game?

 

[Judge Fudge]

You didn't have to bring that up, most of them weren't fans way back then

I Do.

That is why i was celebrating much after that win vs Denver. More like a Injustice corrected

 

[seafandoghawk]

The point is the defense has regressed in the last 4 years as I am sure you saw in the post showing the stats over the last 4 years, You will need to look at replacing Sherm, Kam, Wagner, ET Avril and Bennet. As you mentioned you agree they are getting older.

The whole point is that there is not near the talent of those 6 players being developed under them because of the inept drafting or signing of undrafted free agent players as was shown in this thread. if you cant find them by drafting them are you going to sign free agents to replace them for big money? Your team needs to draft players on the Offense as that is the week spot on your team with no running game and a sucky O line.

What should Schneider do? Draft to help fix the offense and protect the $20 mill dollar QB? Or should he draft to try to find players to replace those aging defensive players that can have time to develop? The draft and signing of undrafted free agents has sucked for your defense since 2013

When those 6 players you mentioned get to the end of their current contracts will they stay and play cheap as a discount or try to get the most money they can for their last contract? As they already have a ring

As I haven't kept up with this debate through several threads or whatever, and initially joined this debate in a limited fashion, I have been trying to understand what the actual point is. And I'm just going to say what I really think.

In my opinion, your idea that the Hawks defense is aging is technically true but also trivial if not meaningless, given that the defense isn't actually old by any reasonable standards. As I pointed out, the only position group whose average age is around 30 years old is the D-Line-- a position group that has three starter-quality 'back ups' getting significant minutes and making meaningful contributions. The core of the D-Line is set for the future.

The starting LB position group is in its athletic prime, and its back ups have been with the team for years, good enough to keep making the team (which itself says something about their potential), some of them with a reasonable amount of snaps under their belt, all knowing the system well by now, with no true way of knowing yet just how effective they would/will become as experienced starters. The Seahawks regularly bring in competition for every position group in their training camps; and these guys keep surviving the cut.

The starting secondary also is in its athletic prime, with the back ups also experienced in the system for the most part. The Seahawks have a very detailed training system for their secondary; so it takes a while for players to really get it. And they've employed a somewhat different strategy in the secondary-- some of their back ups came from trade or waiver pick ups before getting plugged into the developmental training regimen. But the bottom line is that they're all athletic, hyper-competitive, and good enough to keep making the cut in training camp.

And although the Seahawks defense has technically regressed from the historically great defense of 2013, it's been a regression that has kept them consistently at the very top of the NFL in scoring defense. So again, though your point is technically true, it seems so trivial as to be all but meaningless. It seems like you're arguing in detail around the margins of an empty point. And if, in your opinion, the Seahawks are overpaying for such a historic run of defensive excellence as they've pulled off, then there are probably very smart football people who would disagree with you.

Or put it this way: personally, I'm not nearly as concerned for the future of the Seahawks defense as you seem to be. I also think that if you truly want to focus in a meaningful way on the future of the Seahawks defense, then you'd have to go well beyond just looking up draft picks and ages and salaries. You'd have to know something about their drafting and team-building philosophy, and what kinds of players they look for, how they set up competitions in training camps, and a little something about the history of those back ups within Seattle's system that you at least implicitly disparage.

So I'll give you that Cliff Avril, Michael Bennett, Bobby Wagner, KJ Wright, Richard Sherman, Kam Chancellor, and Earl Thomas are all older than they were four years ago. And yes the Seahawks have generally invested more draft capital in the offense than their historic defense over the last several years-- which I support. They still need a good draft next year heavy on O-Lineman most of all, and maybe RB too, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm trying to give you the props that you're looking for, but without ignoring how trivial much of what you've writtn must appear to most Hawk fans who know the team much more intimately than you. You will very likely see the Seahawks invest higher draft capital in certain defensive positions as contracts start coming up for extension in the next couple of years, depending on who they plan to extend at what price etc etc. Meanwhile, the team has serious needs on the O-Line, and will always be looking to draft quality D-Lineman fairly high also.

But the alarms that you're raising are more alarming to you than me, because I feel pretty confident the the future of the Seahawks defense looks solid.

 

[seafandoghawk]

The whole point is that there is not near the talent of those 6 players being developed under them because of the inept drafting or signing of undrafted free agent players as was shown in this thread. if you cant find them by drafting them are you going to sign free agents to replace them for big money? Your team needs to draft players on the Offense as that is the week spot on your team with no running game and a sucky O line.

What should Schneider do? Draft to help fix the offense and protect the $20 mill dollar QB? Or should he draft to try to find players to replace those aging defensive players that can have time to develop? The draft and signing of undrafted free agents has sucked for your defense since 2013

When those 6 players you mentioned get to the end of their current contracts will they stay and play cheap as a discount or try to get the most money they can for their last contract? As they already have a ring

I just don't agree that Wagner, Wright, Sherman, Chancellor, or Thomas are old enough to be investing immediate high-round draft picks as their eventual replacements (maybe Chancellor, but I don't think it's an emergency just yet, and Kelcie McCray has actually proven solid enough as a back up that he can help bridge that whole issue). Concerning Avril and Bnnett, the Hawks already have that in place, and in addition will always look for quality D-Lineman in the high rounds of the draft if they can get them where they've been accustomed to drafting (ie, at the end of the rounds).Plus, the contracts of the defensive core of seven players are staggered, so that in any given year only some of those players will requite drafting decisions concerning future replacements.

Anyway, in my opinion your whole promise is flawed simply because it exaggerates how 'aging' the defense is, while also ignoring realities like the staggered nature of those contracts. In reality, the Hawks will have an opportunity to extend some or many of those contracts when the time comes-- or if not desirable/feasible, will have an opportunity to make high-round draft picks to replace them.

Which is why next year's draft will be extremely important to them in my opinion. I don't see any emergency on the defense that would require them to focus away from trying to shore up their extreme deficiencies on the O-Line (especially at RT, but other positions too). They absolutely need to hit on some success there, because after next year they really may have to begin thinking about drafting defensive positions in the higher rounds that they've been able to defer for a while. We'll see how it goes.

 

[richig07]

They deserve all the criticism they will get. Look like a one and done in the post season

Nah. They're not gonna lose to whoever gets the fuckin 6th seed between WSH and DET at home. Hell... they'll at least make it to the NFC Title game. IMO. ATL is way too soft, and it looks like that would be their Divisional Round matchup.

 

[richig07]

I think if we win next week and Atlanta loses to the Saints we can still get it... But we had it in our grasp and we let it slip... I think Detroit has a chance also...

Scenarios for NFC #2 seed
ATL - Win vs NO and clinch
SEA - Win at SF and clinch with ATL loss
DET - Win vs GB and clinch with both ATL and SEA losses

 

[richig07]

How did the Raiders become "insignificant", didn't the Raiders win today?

I am responding to this hoping you found out the news by now... lol

 

[Uhsplit]

I just like to share clear facts and let people decide what they think. if I see what I feel is BS I will try to show why I feel it is BS in my mind. If others dont agree all is good but I show why I feel the way I do.

NOw that you see what is really going on you call it a reach which is all good

You just better hope there is a plan to help the defense. It is doing fine now but is not dominating as it use to be and I dont see any younger players coming in that re better than who the starters are now or they would be starting. The Seattle defense use to be able to be a scoring defense that helped the offense out. How many defensive scores have there been this year to help out a struggling lower rated offense with a bad o line and no running game?

Cripes man, I'm sorry.
All along I have thought you were focused on trolling us Seahawk fans when in truth you are performing a community service in your break down of NFL teams.
Did I miss your review on the Jags?

 

[The Oldtimer]

I am responding to this hoping you found out the news by now... lol

Yeah I know Derek Carr is out for the season and it will be very hard for the Raiders to advance in the playoffs.

 

[Used 2 B Hu]

HEY! Don't include me in that list, since day 1 !! Jim Zorn was our QB and Jack Pitera was our coach, I've been through it all ... Lot's of diehard Seahawks fans on this board...

Phony...you didn't even mention Steve Largent