This Rebuild

[Msfann]

Used car Jerry has already failed us once and is damned lucky to still be here.

We were supposed to have this rebuild or retooling or whatever it is around here when he first joined the team but he quickly abandoned that plan to try to win now like every other GM they hire and failed miserably and the team is years behind because of it.

I don't see one year of trades turning anything around. The guy has failed for almost 4 years already.

 

[SeattleCoug]

I still believe in Jerry I think too many people give him heat for this season the man literally came out and said that this was going to be a scrap year, unfortunately unless you are the Yankees or Red sox or a big time franchise like them you will need to tank. The Astros tanked, The Padres tanked, teams in other leagues tank. If you ask me if I would rather be a mariners fan right now or a Rangers/Angels fan with a pipe dream of making the playoffs with not much prospects to bank on, I would rather be a mariner fan going forward.

Jerry won enough game to be extended we had like 1 winning season in the prior 6 seasons before he got there. when he takes over in his 3 seasons 2 of them they were winning. Expecting to out play the Astros with a championship roster with what we had at the time with over paid old players and 0 budget in the payroll were ridiculous expectations.

Ranking All 30 MLB Farm Systems, Post-2019 MLB Draft

As long as we have a stacked farm with a winning AA ball club with players getting promoted are all positive signs.

Agree to disagree.

The win total or winning seasons is pretty irrevalant to me. The face that Scott Servais is the 2nd winningest manager in team history isnt really because he's been so good. Last year was about as fake of an 89 win season as you could get. They went 11-2 against KC and Baltimore who were historically bad and combined for like 220 losses last year. He was hired to make the playoffs. Plain and simple and failed. And when the team was close in 2016, he didn't do enough. They proceeded to tail off at the end of August and couldn't recover. Last time I'll say this but you dont hire Jerry as the GM if the plan was to compete for three seasons, extend him and then rebuild. That's just not something a normal franchise does.

 

[seattlefan75]

Agree to disagree.

The win total or winning seasons is pretty irrevalant to me. The face that Scott Servais is the 2nd winningest manager in team history isnt really because he's been so good. Last year was about as fake of an 89 win season as you could get. They went 11-2 against KC and Baltimore who were historically bad and combined for like 220 losses last year. He was hired to make the playoffs. Plain and simple and failed. And when the team was close in 2016, he didn't do enough. They proceeded to tail off at the end of August and couldn't recover. Last time I'll say this but you dont hire Jerry as the GM if the plan was to compete for three seasons, extend him and then rebuild. That's just not something a normal franchise does.

Yes agree to disagree I think we talked on this subject already. I really disagree on the whole fake win season if there is any sport is accurate on who you are to me is baseball you cant skate by 162 games. In the NFL if Tom Brady breaks a leg or Lebron James tears a knee that changes the outcome of the whole league but that idea doesn't apply in baseball. I try to put myself in the GMs shoes and ask myself what free agent did we not sign that we could have signed or traded that would have made us a playoff team today OR what prospect that they could have drafted that didn't in which Kyle Lewis is a bust and the guy drafted after him is flourishing.

For me if we do not win and become competitive once these players are up then that is what will cause Jerry to lose his job and get fired.

 

[SeattleCoug]

Yes agree to disagree I think we talked on this subject already. I really disagree on the whole fake win season if there is any sport is accurate on who you are to me is baseball you cant skate by 162 games. In the NFL if Tom Brady breaks a leg or Lebron James tears a knee that changes the outcome of the whole league but that idea doesn't apply in baseball. I try to put myself in the GMs shoes and ask myself what free agent did we not sign that we could have signed or traded that would have made us a playoff team today OR what prospect that they could have drafted that didn't in which Kyle Lewis is a bust and the guy drafted after him is flourishing.

For me if we do not win and become competitive once these players are up then that is what will cause Jerry to lose his job and get fired.

I think last year was extremely unique in terms of haves and have nots in the AL. I am not trying to play the what if game but I really was a year that probably wont happen again for awhile. 3 teams won over 100 games which isnt very common and 3 teams lost over 100 games which also isnt very common. This year its a tad more balanced.
The Mariners won 89 games and no other team other won between 81-89 games. The Mariners I think were the one team last year that wasn't a have or have not, maybe the Angels. The Rays and A's are proving this year they were not and they typically field competitive teams anyway. My point is that the Mariners winning 89 games last year doesn't really signal that they had a great year and thankfully management agreed with that hence the path they chose to go down going forward.

Regardless of how we see it, Jerry should get two more years at this point to see his 2021 goal through and midway through 2021 would be the time to let him go if things arent progressing like they should.

 

[mcnabb7542]

Regardless of how we see it, Jerry should get two more years at this point to see his 2021 goal through and midway through 2021 would be the time to let him go if things arent progressing like they should.

Adding on this :

And find a GM that will believe in the continue progress of building up the farm system. ( Not someone that will come in and sell off prospects to win now with over paid vets)

If this is going to be built the right way it needs to be built like the A's, for the simple fact Seattle ownership will never be big spenders so why not do what the A's do, they compete every year, and when they have a player due for that big payday they trade them away and get well above prospects back in the trade.

 

[wazzu31]

Yes agree to disagree I think we talked on this subject already. I really disagree on the whole fake win season if there is any sport is accurate on who you are to me is baseball you cant skate by 162 games. In the NFL if Tom Brady breaks a leg or Lebron James tears a knee that changes the outcome of the whole league but that idea doesn't apply in baseball. I try to put myself in the GMs shoes and ask myself what free agent did we not sign that we could have signed or traded that would have made us a playoff team today OR what prospect that they could have drafted that didn't in which Kyle Lewis is a bust and the guy drafted after him is flourishing.

For me if we do not win and become competitive once these players are up then that is what will cause Jerry to lose his job and get fired.

I can see what your saying but it isn’t a what free agent they could’ve signed or draft pick. It is his job to have dealt his prospects for players that would’ve helped the team get to the playoffs. Not trade his top position playing prospect for a Marco Gonzalez or his top pitching prospect for a Dee Gordon.

Your second part I can see as well except Jerry wasn’t hire for a rebuild. In no other line of work is a guy given a job to do one thing and fail miserably at then given a chance to do it the exact opposite way. Even though he put his idiotic time table on it, a rebuild takes 4-5 years not 2. By 2021 all of “his guys” won’t be enough to field the whole roster so then we are back to trusting him in trying to do something he has already failed at and that is spending money wisely to field a playoff team.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Yes agree to disagree I think we talked on this subject already. I really disagree on the whole fake win season if there is any sport is accurate on who you are to me is baseball you cant skate by 162 games. In the NFL if Tom Brady breaks a leg or Lebron James tears a knee that changes the outcome of the whole league but that idea doesn't apply in baseball. I try to put myself in the GMs shoes and ask myself what free agent did we not sign that we could have signed or traded that would have made us a playoff team today OR what prospect that they could have drafted that didn't in which Kyle Lewis is a bust and the guy drafted after him is flourishing.

For me if we do not win and become competitive once these players are up then that is what will cause Jerry to lose his job and get fired.

I'm not going to argue that Kyle Lewis isn't a bust, but if it makes you feel any better he is hitting .324/.394/.474 with 5 HRs and 15 doubles over his last 57 games.

He has had a lot of unfortunate injuries but was always touted for his natural ability. Perhaps now that he's healthy and getting some confidence, he's turning into the player we thought he could be.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Adding on this :

And find a GM that will believe in the continue progress of building up the farm system. ( Not someone that will come in and sell off prospects to win now with over paid vets)

If this is going to be built the right way it needs to be built like the A's, for the simple fact Seattle ownership will never be big spenders so why not do what the A's do, they compete every year, and when they have a player due for that big payday they trade them away and get well above prospects back in the trade.

This is my biggest concern. If in 2021 the prospects at the major league level show promise, the Mariners will have A LOT of money to spend. I don't want to see this franchise once again think they're a massive free agent contract or two and a farm system gutting trade away from the playoffs.

I disagree regarding ownership being unwilling to spend money. We went into this season with a roughly $170m payroll if I recall correctly, which to enter the season would've been around 6th or so in the majors. We can't spend like the Yankees or Dodgers, but there's no reason to think the team can't or won't spend. I just hope they spend the money wisely on prudent re-signings and not overspending in free agency.

 

[NWinAZ]

We went into this season with a roughly $170m payroll if I recall correctly, which to enter the season would've been around 6th or so in the majors.

Per this report, and I was in a hurry so it is the only one I checked, we are 13th to start the season.

2019 MLB Opening Day payrolls: Red Sox, Cubs, Yankees open season above competitive balance tax threshold

 

[seattlefan75]

I think last year was extremely unique in terms of haves and have nots in the AL. I am not trying to play the what if game but I really was a year that probably wont happen again for awhile. 3 teams won over 100 games which isnt very common and 3 teams lost over 100 games which also isnt very common. This year its a tad more balanced.
The Mariners won 89 games and no other team other won between 81-89 games. The Mariners I think were the one team last year that wasn't a have or have not, maybe the Angels. The Rays and A's are proving this year they were not and they typically field competitive teams anyway. My point is that the Mariners winning 89 games last year doesn't really signal that they had a great year and thankfully management agreed with that hence the path they chose to go down going forward.

Regardless of how we see it, Jerry should get two more years at this point to see his 2021 goal through and midway through 2021 would be the time to let him go if things arent progressing like they should.

That is what I have been saying I am trying to argue with people that are saying to this point should be fired for not making the playoffs and not already having a playoff contending team

 

[seattlefan75]

I can see what your saying but it isn’t a what free agent they could’ve signed or draft pick. It is his job to have dealt his prospects for players that would’ve helped the team get to the playoffs. Not trade his top position playing prospect for a Marco Gonzalez or his top pitching prospect for a Dee Gordon.

Your second part I can see as well except Jerry wasn’t hire for a rebuild. In no other line of work is a guy given a job to do one thing and fail miserably at then given a chance to do it the exact opposite way. Even though he put his idiotic time table on it, a rebuild takes 4-5 years not 2. By 2021 all of “his guys” won’t be enough to field the whole roster so then we are back to trusting him in trying to do something he has already failed at and that is spending money wisely to field a playoff team.

I can argue that those trades were actually good for us Nick Neidert is doing nothing for the Marlins right now they demoted him from AAA back down to A level he is not doing well at all in their farm system and I believe the 1 million international money that we gained from the Miami trade was used to sign Julio Rodriguez. The Jury is still out on Tyler Oneill I think Marco puts up respectable numbers with him having more wins than loses on a team that's tanking. I still think Tyler will be low batting average high strikeout hitter with power which isn't what you want these days.

Normally a rebuild takes about 4-5 years depending on how bad your team is but this is where you have to give Jerry credit this man acquired 3 first round prospects to our farm so essentially if you include next years 1st round pick which could be a top 5 pick we will have 8 first round picks in our farm not including guys like Julio Rodriguez, Jake Fraley, possibly Sam Carlson and a few others so a 2 year time frame I think sounds about right. NOW if they players turn into busts and he panics and trades or over spends for mediocre players than I am all for firing him

 

[seattlefan75]

I'm not going to argue that Kyle Lewis isn't a bust, but if it makes you feel any better he is hitting .324/.394/.474 with 5 HRs and 15 doubles over his last 57 games.

He has had a lot of unfortunate injuries but was always touted for his natural ability. Perhaps now that he's healthy and getting some confidence, he's turning into the player we thought he could be.

I was speaking more into the future if Lewis for sure was a bust and looking back on the draft we can see players after him being all stars. Its basically what happened with Jeff Clement

 

[wazzu31]

I can argue that those trades were actually good for us Nick Neidert is doing nothing for the Marlins right now they demoted him from AAA back down to A level he is not doing well at all in their farm system and I believe the 1 million international money that we gained from the Miami trade was used to sign Julio Rodriguez. The Jury is still out on Tyler Oneill I think Marco puts up respectable numbers with him having more wins than loses on a team that's tanking. I still think Tyler will be low batting average high strikeout hitter with power which isn't what you want these days.

Normally a rebuild takes about 4-5 years depending on how bad your team is but this is where you have to give Jerry credit this man acquired 3 first round prospects to our farm so essentially if you include next years 1st round pick which could be a top 5 pick we will have 8 first round picks in our farm not including guys like Julio Rodriguez, Jake Fraley, possibly Sam Carlson and a few others so a 2 year time frame I think sounds about right. NOW if they players turn into busts and he panics and trades or over spends for mediocre players than I am all for firing him

But it’s irrelevant what they are doing in the minors. What’s relevant is Jerry used his top two prospects and got in return nobody that will lead him to a playoff. Baseball GM’s who succeed don’t deal top prospects for a number 3 starter and a 9 hole hitter.

I’ve given credit and I think everyone have given Jerry credit for improving the farm system. He has done a good job and restocking the system. I think the issue with most of us is that we have zero faith in him. He has failed horribly at being a GM for two franchises .

 

[SeattleCoug]

That is what I have been saying I am trying to argue with people that are saying to this point should be fired for not making the playoffs and not already having a playoff contending team

I think we still differ a little bit. Now that he is still here and was allowed to rebuild he shouldn't be fired. I was mainly saying you dont fire him after this year or during next year. I however do think there was an argument to fire him after last year if they hadnt already extended him. But whats done is done and we move forward.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Per this report, and I was in a hurry so it is the only one I checked, we are 13th to start the season.

2019 MLB Opening Day payrolls: Red Sox, Cubs, Yankees open season above competitive balance tax threshold

I can't remember where I saw it but I swear I saw something that said $170m. This article by Divish has us at $160m (which may actually be the number I was thinking of):

With the MLB trade deadline over, here’s where the Mariners’ ‘step-back’ plan stands

"That leaves Seattle’s projected payroll for 2020 to about $80 million, with about $40 million of that to guaranteed MLB contracts. That total also includes the $23 million in retained contract money in the Leake, Robinson Cano, Jay Bruce and Edwin Encarnacion trades. The Mariners came into this season with a $160 million projected payroll."

I would say the floor for a competitive Mariners team would be $160m without adjusting for inflation. With Divish's numbers that would put us at 9th barely behind the Mets.

 

[seahawksfan234]

I was speaking more into the future if Lewis for sure was a bust and looking back on the draft we can see players after him being all stars. Its basically what happened with Jeff Clement

Fair enough.

With Kyle Lewis one of the biggest issues is that his development has been substantially delayed due to all of the injuries. I'm not necessarily expecting anything great from him, but I'd be reluctant to label him a bust yet.

 

[mcnabb7542]

Okay here is what 2021 could look like without additions ( LookOutLanding)

C: Omar Narváez
1B: Evan White
2B: Shed Long
3B: let’s come back to this shall we
SS: J.P. Crawford
OF: Jake Fraley, Mallex Smith, Mitch Haniger
DH: Daniel Vogelbach
Bench: C Cal Raleigh, OF Kyle Lewis, OF Braden Bishop and/or Dom Thompson-Williams, INF Dylan Moore and/or Donnie Walton

SP: Marco Gonzales, Yusei Kikuchi, Justus Sheffield, Justin Dunn, Logan Gilbert
RP: Joey Gerber, Art Warren, Wyatt Mills, Matt Festa, Erik Swanson, Taylor Guilbeau, Sam Delaplane, Aaron Fletcher

 

[NWinAZ]

I can't remember where I saw it but I swear I saw something that said $170m. This article by Divish has us at $160m (which may actually be the number I was thinking of):

With the MLB trade deadline over, here’s where the Mariners’ ‘step-back’ plan stands

"That leaves Seattle’s projected payroll for 2020 to about $80 million, with about $40 million of that to guaranteed MLB contracts. That total also includes the $23 million in retained contract money in the Leake, Robinson Cano, Jay Bruce and Edwin Encarnacion trades. The Mariners came into this season with a $160 million projected payroll."

I would say the floor for a competitive Mariners team would be $160m without adjusting for inflation. With Divish's numbers that would put us at 9th barely behind the Mets.

I would say we need to be around 5th or 6th in payroll because of lack of young pitching talent and the fact players don't see Seattle as a competitive MLB team so overpay will have to happen. With that said, I don't think we should ever give out Cano type deals again. Spread the money around and focus on pitching. I would love Cole and Wheeler next year added and then take a chance on a guy like Ozuna who doesn't play a position of need but might be worth it. I really believe if they want to contend in 2012 signing real talent starts in 2020.

 

[NWinAZ]

Okay here is what 2021 could look like without additions ( LookOutLanding)

C: Omar Narváez
1B: Evan White
2B: Shed Long
3B: let’s come back to this shall we
SS: J.P. Crawford
OF: Jake Fraley, Mallex Smith, Mitch Haniger
DH: Daniel Vogelbach
Bench: C Cal Raleigh, OF Kyle Lewis, OF Braden Bishop and/or Dom Thompson-Williams, INF Dylan Moore and/or Donnie Walton

SP: Marco Gonzales, Yusei Kikuchi, Justus Sheffield, Justin Dunn, Logan Gilbert
RP: Joey Gerber, Art Warren, Wyatt Mills, Matt Festa, Erik Swanson, Taylor Guilbeau, Sam Delaplane, Aaron Fletcher

Thanks, I posted that like 3 days ago!!!!! LOL!!!!

 

[mcnabb7542]

Thanks, I posted that like 3 days ago!!!!! LOL!!!!