The Case Against MJ as the GOAT (topical discussion only please)

[tlance]

First off, the idea that Luka is the #2 guy on the Lakers is laughable... and FTR Luka averaged 30/7/6 on 45%/35%/89% in the series. Give Jordan (at ANY age) a teammate with that type of production and he'd never lose, let alone get bounced in the first-round in 5 games by a lower seed.

If this was a fluke it wouldn't be an issue... but it's not:

2009: Cavs were the #1 seed but lost to a lower seed
2010: Cavs were the #1 seed but lost to a lower seed
2011: Lost to a lower seed
2019: Failed to make Playoffs
2022: Failed to make Playoffs (with 4 HOF teammates by his side)
2024: Lost to a lower seed (in 5 games, with a Top 3 teammate by his side)

You won't find that consistent pattern of underachievement with Jordan... and no, pointing out how the Bulls' "core" of a 3-Peat team that won 55 games and made it to the second-round (without Jordan) doesn't hold much weight, especially considering the very next year the Bulls were barely a .500 team fighting to make the playoffs (until MJ returned).

As for LeBron's teams before/after he left... it wasn't "just" LeBron who impacted their decline. In Cleveland (circa 2011) the entire team was decimated with injuries, and when he left them the second time Kyrie was also gone, and Love was a mere shadow of his former self... similar to Miami (with Ray Allen gone and Chris Bosh's career essentially over due to blood clotting).

In 1994 the Bulls still had their 3-Peat Championship core intact (save for Jordan) "and" they added the best player in the world outside the NBA (Kukoc) "and" they also added Ron Harper (who averaged 20/6/5 the previous season with the Clippers).

Not exactly apples-to-apples.

Luka was not number 2 for the Lakers. This is the first time in LeBron’s career he has actually been number 2.

Wade certainly wasn’t number 2 and neither was Davis. And if you ask those guys, they will tell you.

As for if Jordan ever had a guy as good as Luka?

Well?

The stats don’t match. But where does Luka rank among league stars today? He is behind Jokic and SGA for sure. Going head to head with Ant, Ant looked better to me in this series.

Luka is somewhere between 3rd and 5th or 6th best player in the league I would say.

Prime Pippen was pretty darn close to that. Top 10 player for sure, arguably top 5.

Pippen’s numbers not going to come close but Pippen was one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all time and Luka’s defense is laughably bad.

Give Jordan Luka instead of Pippen and the Bulls are not a better team. Pippen was great in his own right and fit their identity much better.

 

[tlance]

If this was a fluke it wouldn't be an issue... but it's not:

2009: Cavs were the #1 seed but lost to a lower seed
2010: Cavs were the #1 seed but lost to a lower seed
2011: Lost to a lower seed
2019: Failed to make Playoffs
2022: Failed to make Playoffs (with 4 HOF teammates by his side)
2024: Lost to a lower seed (in 5 games, with a Top 3 teammate by his side)

Calling this a pattern of underachievement is absolutely wild.

The Cavs rosters beyond LeBron in ‘09 and ‘10 were absolute trash. Take LeBron off those teams and they don’t come close to making the playoffs.

He should be lauded for overachieving in getting to 60+ wins instead of criticized for losing to better Celtic and Magic teams.

2019? Lakers were between 4 and 5 seed before LeBron got hurt. He only played 55 games. The Lakers were 10-17 in games he missed, and also just weren’t playing at the same level after he returned.

2022? 4 HOF teammates?

You can’t be serious with this claim. Is it technically true? I guess so.

But…

Davis played 40 games. LeBron only played 56.

Russ Was a disaster in terms of fit and legitimately made the team worse.

This was Melo’s final season. He was 37 and only playing 26 minutes a game. Could he still score? Sure. But not playing anywhere near HOF level Melo.

Dwight? Same story, even more true. 36 years old. Final NBA season. Only played 16 minutes a game and averaged 6 points.

Rondo? Maybe he makes the HOF too. 16 minutes per game and 3 PPG in his second to last season.

Highlighting 4 HOF teammates when these guys were clearly on fumes is wild degree of cherry picking.

2011 is the only time in LeBron’s career where you can say he had a championship roster and lost to an inferior team.

 

[MAGA2024]

Luka was not number 2 for the Lakers. This is the first time in LeBron’s career he has actually been number 2.

Wade certainly wasn’t number 2 and neither was Davis. And if you ask those guys, they will tell you.

As for if Jordan ever had a guy as good as Luka?

Well?

The stats don’t match. But where does Luka rank among league stars today? He is behind Jokic and SGA for sure. Going head to head with Ant, Ant looked better to me in this series.

Luka is somewhere between 3rd and 5th or 6th best player in the league I would say.

Prime Pippen was pretty darn close to that. Top 10 player for sure, arguably top 5.

Pippen’s numbers not going to come close but Pippen was one of the greatest perimeter defenders of all time and Luka’s defense is laughably bad.

Give Jordan Luka instead of Pippen and the Bulls are not a better team. Pippen was great in his own right and fit their identity much better.

Luka has been widely regarded as a Top 3 player in the game for a few years now... but now he joins LeBron, gets bounced in the first-round by a lower seed, and suddenly he may not even be Top 5??

Hmmm...

Anyway, regardless... no matter how you slice it this series loss was a huge stain on LeBron (AND Luka's) resume.

Wade was easily a Top 3-5 player in the game in 2010. The following year he didn't have to do as much (with LeBron and Bosh on board) but that doesn't mean he wasn't STILL that same player... and in the 2011 Finals Wade was clearly better than LeBron. Anthony Davis was EASILY the best two-way player on the Lakers (25/12 with All NBA Defense), so you could argue he was just as valuable to the team as was LeBron.

The point is there are/were several seasons where a strong argument could be made that LeBron was not the "undisputed" best/most valuable player on his team. On the flipside there was never a season where you could argue Jordan wasn't that guy.

Also your point about Pippen fitting the Bulls' identity is absolutely correct... and that "chemistry" point is very often overlooked as critical to the Bulls' success, in that every player knew what their exact role was and they all executed accordingly.

That sort of chemistry never really existed with LeBron and his teams because LeBron himself never had a clearly defined role.

Case in point: Jordan was ALWAYS going to be the guy to carry the Scoring load, and he was always going to give you all-out effort on Defense... and everyone on the team knew it, game-in game-out. On the other hand LeBron will very often defer/facilitate heavily to his teammates one game, then the next night he'll jack up 25 shots. One game you'll have lock-down Defense from James, the next game he's a tree stump.

It was that consistency from Jordan (ie; you knew what you were getting from him every game) that enabled his teammates to excel at their respective roles. Pippen, for example, never went into a game wondering if he was going to have to drop 30 points. That intabgible (made possible by Jordan) meant that Scottie could focus on dominating in other facets.

LeBron's teams didn't have that level of consistency, which creates chemisty and cohesion... and IMO that's probably the main reason why LeBron has lost to lower seeds and failed to make the playoffs so many times.

...and of course this is just another reason why you can't put LeBron ahead of Jordan on the GOAT list.

 

[MAGA2024]

Calling this a pattern of underachievement is absolutely wild.

The Cavs rosters beyond LeBron in ‘09 and ‘10 were absolute trash. Take LeBron off those teams and they don’t come close to making the playoffs.

He should be lauded for overachieving in getting to 60+ wins instead of criticized for losing to better Celtic and Magic teams.

2019? Lakers were between 4 and 5 seed before LeBron got hurt. He only played 55 games. The Lakers were 10-17 in games he missed, and also just weren’t playing at the same level after he returned.

2022? 4 HOF teammates?

You can’t be serious with this claim. Is it technically true? I guess so.

But…

Davis played 40 games. LeBron only played 56.

Russ Was a disaster in terms of fit and legitimately made the team worse.

This was Melo’s final season. He was 37 and only playing 26 minutes a game. Could he still score? Sure. But not playing anywhere near HOF level Melo.

Dwight? Same story, even more true. 36 years old. Final NBA season. Only played 16 minutes a game and averaged 6 points.

Rondo? Maybe he makes the HOF too. 16 minutes per game and 3 PPG in his second to last season.

Highlighting 4 HOF teammates when these guys were clearly on fumes is wild degree of cherry picking.

2011 is the only time in LeBron’s career where you can say he had a championship roster and lost to an inferior team.

Why would you argue "take LeBron off the 09 and 10 Cavs and they would be trash"? It's a moot point because LeBron WAS on that roster... and those teams were elite Defensively "and" elite Shooting... and last I checked LeBron wasn't guarding every position simultaneously, nor was he taking/making all those shots. His "teammates" were... and those two (2) teams were both 60+ win #1 seeds "with" LeBron on the court.

Bottom line the 09 and 10 Cavs were the best team in the league during the regular season, led by (arguably) the best player in the game at the time... and they got beat both years by lower seeds.

PERHAPS that's not a huuuuge deal if we're talking in a general sense, but we're not... we're comparing LeBron to Jordan, and Jordan never, ever lost to a lower seed OR lost to a team he clearly should have beat.

Also... the 2022 Lakers had prime AD and Westbrook (with Melo and Dwight off the bench still providing productive minutes). There is no excuse for the Lakers to not make the playoffs (which would have required just 42 wins), nevermind no excuse for winning just 33 games that year

Hell in 1998 Pippen missed 38 games, Kerr missed 32 games, (starting Center) Longley missed 24 games, and Kukoc missed 8 games yet (35 year old) Jordan still managed to carry the Bulls to 62 wins and the #2 seed in the league (behind the Jazz).

Again, in a general sense 2022 is not a huge deal; however if we're arguing LeBron > Jordan it IS significant.

 

[tlance]

Why would you argue "take LeBron off the 09 and 10 Cavs and they would be trash"? It's a moot point because LeBron WAS on that roster... and those teams were elite Defensively "and" elite Shooting... and last I checked LeBron wasn't guarding every position simultaneously, nor was he taking/making all those shots. His "teammates" were... and those two (2) teams were both 60+ win #1 seeds "with" LeBron on the court.

Bottom line the 09 and 10 Cavs were the best team in the league during the regular season, led by (arguably) the best player in the game at the time... and they got beat both years by lower seeds.

PERHAPS that's not a huuuuge deal if we're talking in a general sense, but we're not... we're comparing LeBron to Jordan, and Jordan never, ever lost to a lower seed OR lost to a team he clearly should have beat.

Also... the 2022 Lakers had prime AD and Westbrook (with Melo and Dwight off the bench still providing productive minutes). There is no excuse for the Lakers to not make the playoffs (which would have required just 42 wins), nevermind no excuse for winning just 33 games that year

Hell in 1998 Pippen missed 38 games, Kerr missed 32 games, (starting Center) Longley missed 24 games, and Kukoc missed 8 games yet (35 year old) Jordan still managed to carry the Bulls to 62 wins and the #2 seed in the league (behind the Jazz).

Again, in a general sense 2022 is not a huge deal; however if we're arguing LeBron > Jordan it IS significant.

You are knocking LeBron for loosing in the playoffs to a lesser seed, but not crediting him for getting 60 wins with a bad supporting cast.

That doesn’t make sense.

Prime Westbrook in 2022?

You are lying now.

 

[MAGA2024]

You are knocking LeBron for loosing in the playoffs to a lesser seed, but not crediting him for getting 60 wins with a bad supporting cast.

That doesn’t make sense.

Prime Westbrook in 2022?

You are lying now.

I never said 'prime" Westbrook, I said prime AD. Perhaps I wrote it wrong but regardless, 2022 Westbrook averaged 19/7/7 and was coming off a Triple Double season the previous year (his 4th TD "season" in 5 years at the time), so he was hardly washed up.

Also I am crediting LeBron for the 2009 / 2010 Cavs' 60+ win "regular season" success; I even acknowledged that they were led by him as arguably/probably the best player in the game at the time; however the notion that his teammates were "bad" is simply not correct:

2009: #4 Offense / #3 Defense / #2 3PT% / 66-wins
2010: #6 Ofense / #7 Defense / #2 3PT% / 61-wins

There's no chance bad teammates can produce at an elite level two (2) straight years, doesn't matter how great LeBron was back then.... as mentioned, James wasn't single-handedly guarding all 5 positions simultaneously, nor was he knocking down all those 3's; in fact he finished 8th and 6th respectively (on the team!) in 3PT% during the 09 and 10 seasons. Not saying he had a juggernaut around him, but clearly those Cavs were a Defensive powerhouse with lights-out Shooters.

But again, GOAT discussions aren't about "regular season" success... sure that plays a role (albeit not a huge one), but when you get into debating who was the best ever what you do in the Playoffs/Finals absolutely matters significantly more... and when you're putting up 3 straight seasons of losing to lower seeds in the Playoffs (in your prime no less) that's not going to win over much support considering Jordan never once lost to a lower seed,

 

[Wamu]

@Black Adam

Get that popcorn machine going.

 

[Black Adam]

@Black Adam

Get that popcorn machine going.

Gotcha covered, bud...

 

[Black Adam]

 

[Wamu]

I never said 'prime" Westbrook, I said prime AD. Perhaps I wrote it wrong but regardless, 2022 Westbrook averaged 19/7/7 and was coming off a Triple Double season the previous year (his 4th TD "season" in 5 years at the time), so he was hardly washed up.

Also I am crediting LeBron for the 2009 / 2010 Cavs' 60+ win "regular season" success; I even acknowledged that they were led by him as arguably/probably the best player in the game at the time; however the notion that his teammates were "bad" is simply not correct:

2009: #4 Offense / #3 Defense / #2 3PT% / 66-wins
2010: #6 Ofense / #7 Defense / #2 3PT% / 61-wins

There's no chance bad teammates can produce at an elite level two (2) straight years, doesn't matter how great LeBron was back then.... as mentioned, James wasn't single-handedly guarding all 5 positions simultaneously, nor was he knocking down all those 3's; in fact he finished 8th and 6th respectively (on the team!) in 3PT% during the 09 and 10 seasons. Not saying he had a juggernaut around him, but clearly those Cavs were a Defensive powerhouse with lights-out Shooters.

But again, GOAT discussions aren't about "regular season" success... sure that plays a role (albeit not a huge one), but when you get into debating who was the best ever what you do in the Playoffs/Finals absolutely matters significantly more... and when you're putting up 3 straight seasons of losing to lower seeds in the Playoffs (in your prime no less) that's not going to win over much support considering Jordan never once lost to a lower seed,

Well shiiiiiit if the GOAT conversation is only about the playoffs then MJ (6 rings) is Russell's bitch (11 rings). Now see how foolish that sounds?

I have MJ as the GOAT.

But his haters are so over the top they're incapable of giving LeBron any credit for the unmatched career he's had.

 

[UK Cowboy]

Saw them both play their entire career. I give it to MJ, easily. Bron gets 2nd but if Magics career hadn't been interrupted I would have Magic 2nd

 

[MAGA2024]

Well shiiiiiit if the GOAT conversation is only about the playoffs then MJ (6 rings) is Russell's bitch (11 rings). Now see how foolish that sounds?

I have MJ as the GOAT.

But his haters are so over the top they're incapable of giving LeBron any credit for the unmatched career he's had.

Who said the GOAT debate was "only" about the Playoffs/Rings? Not me...

But since you brought up Russell, here's some interesting facts:

Russell needed to win just 25 playoff series for his 11 Championships; Jordan (during his run) had to win 24 playoff series to get his 6 Championships.

Also, Russell faced UNDER .500 teams in the Finals multiple times, and he was taken to 7 games (in the Finals) multiple times as well despite having as many as 6-7 HOF teammates by his side in numerous seasons (while his compeition never had more than 3 or 4 in any one year).

As for LeBron... you (in general, not you personally) can't come to the GOAT fight with a knife when you're trying to argue that he's better than Jordan (or should be ranked higher up on the all-time great list).

James has his place among the best of the best, but he's just not the GOAT... he has way too many flaws and/or black-eyes on his resume to rank ahead of Jordan.

 

[Wamu]

(1)Who said the GOAT debate was "only" about the Playoffs/Rings? Not me...

But since you brought up Russell, here's some interesting facts:

Russell needed to win just 25 playoff series for his 11 Championships; Jordan (during his run) had to win 24 playoff series to get his 6 Championships.

Also, Russell faced UNDER .500 teams in the Finals multiple times, and he was taken to 7 games (in the Finals) multiple times as well despite having as many as 6-7 HOF teammates by his side in numerous seasons (while his compeition never had more than 3 or 4 in any one year).

(2)As for LeBron... you (in general, not you personally) can't come to the GOAT fight with a knife when you're trying to argue that he's better than Jordan (or should be ranked higher up on the all-time great list).

James has his place among the best of the best, but he's just not the GOAT... he has way too many flaws and/or black-eyes on his resume to rank ahead of Jordan.

1. "GOAT discussions aren't about regular season success" <---from your # 106 comment / Well if a GOAT discussion isn't about rings what's it about? You probably have nothing to say about that.

2. Are you on drugs? Never said LeBron's better and even the comment of mine you responded to I said I have MJ as the GOAT. So can you rationally explain why you incorrectly claimed I said LeBron's better than MJ when I said the exact opposite? Of course you can't.

Go sit on the bench junior varsity and take some time to collect your thoughts.

Yer special.