This Rebuild

[NWinAZ]

If you have the right pieces in place, a rebuild doesn't have to take that long.

Braves started their rebuild prior to the 2015 season, they made the playoffs last season.

Hell the Yankees had a slight rebuild where they basically restocked their farm system by trading away two relievers and never had a losing season in the process.

Here is my question to you because I don't believe in rebuilds. I believe it is a farce. You mention the Braves and what they have done, but looking at all the deals they made I didn't see any real player returned in the big deals as a major factor in today's success. I see they signed/drafted better and added better vets. To me that is just better management. Yes, no?

 

[wazzu31]

If you have the right pieces in place, a rebuild doesn't have to take that long.

Braves started their rebuild prior to the 2015 season, they made the playoffs last season.

Hell the Yankees had a slight rebuild where they basically restocked their farm system by trading away two relievers and never had a losing season in the process.

Your last part is what is infuriating as a Mariners fan. Had they sold off last year they would’ve had a top 5 farm system this year. It helped that your team hit on nearly every top prospect in your farm system. That is where the issue with Mariners rebuild. They literally have to hit on all of their top prospects in order for it to be a successful rebuild. They need at least 3 guys from this draft class to turn into above average relievers and must choose the right FA’s.

 

[Voltaire26]

I was driving home yesterday and was listening to one of the local sports stations and they were chatting about how the M’s and fans talk about this rebuild like what the Astros did and someone made the comment “ it took them 7 years to complete the rebuild!”

Of course that made me think, “will fans be that patient for the Ms to get this done?”

So would you be willing to wait 7 years for this to be a winning team again?

The Tigers are in the worst time of the rebuild ... No fans will not be willing to wait 7 years. There will be a lot of bitching. I am in favor of the rebuild, and I am a die hard Tigers fan. It is a hard thing to go through (as a fan).

 

[Voltaire26]

If you have the right pieces in place, a rebuild doesn't have to take that long.

Braves started their rebuild prior to the 2015 season, they made the playoffs last season.

Hell the Yankees had a slight rebuild where they basically restocked their farm system by trading away two relievers and never had a losing season in the process.

When the Braves started their rebuild, they had the worst ranked farm system in the Majors, and it was ranked number 1 or 2 depending on which source you use a couple years later, and we did that without trading away Freddie Freeman, who would have brought back a king's ransom.

You guys have done a great job and your minors are still loaded.

 

[mcnabb7542]

The Tigers are in the worst time of the rebuild ... No fans will not be willing to wait 7 years. There will be a lot of bitching. I am in favor of the rebuild, and I am a die hard Tigers fan. It is a hard thing to go through (as a fan).

To be fair M's fans have been waiting 18 years for another playoff team so the waiting process isn't new to us.
This "restock of the farm system" is about 10 years over due for the fact they had former GM's that couldn't draft the right guys and players really never panned out.

There is this belief out of the front office this team will be competitive in 2021, well to me that would mean they would be signing FA's in the offseason to make that goal. Of course they would need at least 4-5 of these young guys to actually advance quickly and stick once they hit the big team and that is a lot of "hoping"!


Hey @NWinAZ I think I found the new title "restocking" what do you think?

 

[seahawksfan234]

To be fair M's fans have been waiting 18 years for another playoff team so the waiting process isn't new to us.
This "restock of the farm system" is about 10 years over due for the fact they had former GM's that couldn't draft the right guys and players really never panned out.

There is this belief out of the front office this team will be competitive in 2021, well to me that would mean they would be signing FA's in the offseason to make that goal. Of course they would need at least 4-5 of these young guys to actually advance quickly and stick once they hit the big team and that is a lot of "hoping"!


Hey @NWinAZ I think I found the new title "restocking" what do you think?

Restocking is what the Seahawks did after letting Earl, Sherman, Bennett, etc. walk. They already had the tools in place to be a playoff contender but needed to get younger and move on from certain personalities.

I will say this is the first thorough attempt at a legitimate rebuild - as defined by selling off every player worth even a bag of balls and shedding bad money - in the last 10+ years.

The biggest issue with teams under Bavasi, Jack Z and Dipoto is that they never went all in. At times they had a middling roster and tried to supplement it with free agent acquisitions - Cano, Cruz, Sexson, Beltre, etc. and trades when in reality, a rebuild as extensive as this is needed to take place over a decade ago. Additionally the fact that we whiffed on so many high draft picks plays a substantial role in why we are where we are now.

At least now they have a defined vision.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Here is my question to you because I don't believe in rebuilds. I believe it is a farce. You mention the Braves and what they have done, but looking at all the deals they made I didn't see any real player returned in the big deals as a major factor in today's success. I see they signed/drafted better and added better vets. To me that is just better management. Yes, no?

I think if there was a clearly defined path to building a winning team, it wouldn't be so hard. All circumstances are different. We can get into the semantics of what a "rebuild" is, and I do agree with you that it is partially a PR move to keep the fans complacent, but in reality trading away the guys we did was necessary if we want to realistically reshape the franchise.

Prospects will always be prospects, but the Mariners farm system is now deeper and better than it has been in a long time. I don't really see any other route the Mariners could've taken other than this. All the previous attempts at improving the team through free agency and trading away prospects for veteran players hasn't been successful because we never really had a young core to build around.

 

[NWinAZ]

Hey @NWinAZ I think I found the new title "restocking" what do you think?

LOL! It is the whole 're' anything. First off you can't 're' anything unless you have done it before first. Second, it is never about 're' it is about just doing it right. What we and every other team did that they say was a 'rebuild'was just unload salaries and then actually draft and develop like they should have done from day one of any organizations start.

I know I am bitching about this crao phrase/word/whatever, but what we are doing and other teams have done is nothing new. It works rarely just like it rarely works just loading up with free agents. Get talent via the multiple ways baseball allows you to get talent and keep it coming. For me it is akin to a wannabe mechanic fbuilding an engine then after a year says I need to take it back apart and 'rebuild it' since it isn't working. First off he never first built it so he can't 're'build it and second what makes him any better at building it the second time when he had no clue the first time?

But thanks for the new 're' since I was running out of 're's' to bitch about...lol.

 

[seahawksfan234]

LOL! It is the whole 're' anything. First off you can't 're' anything unless you have done it before first. Second, it is never about 're' it is about just doing it right. What we and every other team did that they say was a 'rebuild'was just unload salaries and then actually draft and develop like they should have done from day one of any organizations start.

I know I am bitching about this crao phrase/word/whatever, but what we are doing and other teams have done is nothing new. It works rarely just like it rarely works just loading up with free agents. Get talent via the multiple ways baseball allows you to get talent and keep it coming. For me it is akin to a wannabe mechanic fbuilding an engine then after a year says I need to take it back apart and 'rebuild it' since it isn't working. First off he never first built it so he can't 're'build it and second what makes him any better at building it the second time when he had no clue the first time?

But thanks for the new 're' since I was running out of 're's' to bitch about...lol.

What about "starting over?"

That doesn't have a 're' to it.

In all seriousness though, semantics aside here is a hypothetical for you:

Say Dipoto was fired at the end of the 2018 season and you were named GM. Wouldn't you also take the same course of action by trading off anything worth a damn, building a decent farm system through those acquisitions, drafting and developing? I don't really see any other course of action the team could've taken. I think that finally going all in with this plan was really our only option.

 

[NWinAZ]

What about "starting over?"

That doesn't have a 're' to it.

In all seriousness though, semantics aside here is a hypothetical for you:

Say Dipoto was fired at the end of the 2018 season and you were named GM. Wouldn't you also take the same course of action by trading off anything worth a damn, building a decent farm system through those acquisitions, drafting and developing? I don't really see any other course of action the team could've taken. I think that finally going all in with this plan was really our only option.

Yes, but that is not rebuilding that is proper general managing of an organization and has been since baseball began. That has always been my point. But just selling off contracts for young players is not this magical thing called 'rebuilding'. Getting value from your young players is key. It opens up all other avenues like free agency, trades, and a winning culture.

That was my point with the Braves example. They had a lot of big contracts and traded them off and the young players they got in return have not been a big part of their success. Their signing/drafting/developing of young talent in recent years has been. Is that rebuilding or good general managing/talent evaluating?

 

[wazzu31]

I think if there was a clearly defined path to building a winning team, it wouldn't be so hard. All circumstances are different. We can get into the semantics of what a "rebuild" is, and I do agree with you that it is partially a PR move to keep the fans complacent, but in reality trading away the guys we did was necessary if we want to realistically reshape the franchise.

Prospects will always be prospects, but the Mariners farm system is now deeper and better than it has been in a long time. I don't really see any other route the Mariners could've taken other than this. All the previous attempts at improving the team through free agency and trading away prospects for veteran players hasn't been successful because we never really had a young core to build around.

They are deeper than they have been in a long time which scares the crap out of me. It’s not the the Mariners haven’t been unsuccessful with drafting or their farm system, it’s just they nearly always trade away guys who go onto to be good at the MLB while holding onto those who bust.

 

[Dolemite censored]

I was driving home yesterday and was listening to one of the local sports stations and they were chatting about how the M’s and fans talk about this rebuild like what the Astros did and someone made the comment “ it took them 7 years to complete the rebuild!”

Of course that made me think, “will fans be that patient for the Ms to get this done?”

So would you be willing to wait 7 years for this to be a winning team again?

Uh, its been 18 years since the 2001 Mariners, so I think that answer would be yes.

 

[Sharkonabicycle]

Uh, its been 18 years since the 2001 Mariners, so I think that answer would be yes.

25 year playoff drought if that's the case... WOOF. Course I guess you can sneak in a playoff appearance even in a rebuild but pretty hard to do. Man.. pretty depressing to think about. Glad I grew up more of a die hard Seahawks fan (back in the early 90s) than a Mariners fan. One of my childhood friends was the opposite (die hard Mariners fan)... can't imagine.

 

[Dolemite censored]

25 year playoff drought if that's the case... WOOF. Course I guess you can sneak in a playoff appearance even in a rebuild but pretty hard to do. Man.. pretty depressing to think about. Glad I grew up more of a die hard Seahawks fan (back in the early 90s) than a Mariners fan. One of my childhood friends was the opposite (die hard Mariners fan)... can't imagine.

Mariners find and get good players, but they always move to a more competitive team.

I don't get why they squander away talent.

 

[seahawksfan234]

Yes, but that is not rebuilding that is proper general managing of an organization and has been since baseball began. That has always been my point. But just selling off contracts for young players is not this magical thing called 'rebuilding'. Getting value from your young players is key. It opens up all other avenues like free agency, trades, and a winning culture.

That was my point with the Braves example. They had a lot of big contracts and traded them off and the young players they got in return have not been a big part of their success. Their signing/drafting/developing of young talent in recent years has been. Is that rebuilding or good general managing/talent evaluating?

I think this is the crux of the issue. Many of the young players that Dipoto has acquired are still in the minors, we won't really know if they (A) picked the right guys and (B) if they develop them well enough for major league success.

Regarding the second bolded point, it's hard to know. I always hate to invoke "luck," but sometimes things just work out the right way. There are plenty of guys who vastly exceed expectations, and just as many who end up being busts.

One thing that concerns me is there are a number of players who left the organization and experienced success elsewhere. Did the Mariners give up on them too early? Did they make a personal adjustment? Did the coaches find something?

I wish there was some way to quantify all of these variables.

 

[seahawksfan234]

They are deeper than they have been in a long time which scares the crap out of me. It’s not the the Mariners haven’t been unsuccessful with drafting or their farm system, it’s just they nearly always trade away guys who go onto to be good at the MLB while holding onto those who bust.

This is one of the biggest things that needs to be prioritized with the organization IMO. I'm worried that once the Mariners are on the cusp of contending, they'll either make an Erik Bedard trade or give some ridiculous contract out of desperation in free agency like they've done every time since Bill Bavasi was the general manager.

It's hard to say the best path to developing a sustainable contender because there are so many things that can go right, and so many that can go wrong.

 

[mcnabb7542]

Maybe I should change the title “ It’s a restock not a rebuild”!

 

[wazzu31]

I think this is the crux of the issue. Many of the young players that Dipoto has acquired are still in the minors, we won't really know if they (A) picked the right guys and (B) if they develop them well enough for major league success.

Regarding the second bolded point, it's hard to know. I always hate to invoke "luck," but sometimes things just work out the right way. There are plenty of guys who vastly exceed expectations, and just as many who end up being busts.

One thing that concerns me is there are a number of players who left the organization and experienced success elsewhere. Did the Mariners give up on them too early? Did they make a personal adjustment? Did the coaches find something?

I wish there was some way to quantify all of these variables.

Your last part is the concerning thing. The only real issues at least publicly are Chris Taylor and Michael Saunders of doing things that weren’t by the Mariners. Chris Taylor massively pointed to the Mariners sucking at player development while Saunders did alright but nothing to prove one way or the other on the player development side. Hell Edgar got essentially fired but Trumbo says Edgar teaching him a different approach is the only reason he is still in the big leagues.

 

[mcnabb7542]

Who are the players they gave up on that went on to have great careers?

Raul Is they only one I can honestly think of and he came back here.

 

[Anointed One]

Mariners find and get good players, but they always move to a more competitive team.

I don't get why they squander away talent.

Just like Sheffield... He felt the M's moved him up too quickly, which is why he struggled in the ML's at the beginning of the season... He said he going to AA was the best thing for him so he could get his confidence back... The Mariner's are the worst team in MLB at developing talent... Yes, they trade away talent but they go to teams that know how to develop them... If they had stayed in Seattle, seems like they would've been busts... We have great players - no doubt in the farm system, but does anyone honestly have the faith to believe they can develop that talent into a serious contender? That in itself has been the problem...