SI: Bird better than Lebron

[Leroy Brown]

I want Leroy Brown to try telling Lakers players that Pat Riley didn't let them play defense.

You mean like in '84 where they gave up 110 ppg and still had the 14th best defense in terms of ppg?

databaseBasketball.com - NBA Basketball Statistics, Draft, Awards, and History

Shit...no one played defense like they do today, if we're talking about the 80's up until Detroit started beating ass.

Alex English and fucking Fat Lever (Yes...a guy named fucking Fat Lever!) used to put up monster numbers against the Lakers with the Nuggets. That's just how the league was back then. No one mentions Alex English as an all time player but in his prime he was damn near a 29-30ppg guy.

In the first game against Denver in 1984, the Lakers lost 130-146. There were less points scored in the All Star game that year.

Again, my guy, facts. Watch that old game film as well. It's all there. All this shit is much less subjective than you think...

 

[Leroy Brown]

You're overstating the lack of defense greatly.

Defense was SIMPLER then. But they played a lot of it.

Nope. When you saw scores of 140-126 and didn't bat an eye, there wasn't much defense.

 

[gordontrue]

Its true. Just watch some old game film. The defense today is miles ahead of where it was back in the 80's. It was just a different style of play back then. The old matador defense... then hurry back on offense.

NBA players are much better shooters today than they were a few decades ago. They are much better athletes. They are bigger, faster, and stronger. They have the benefit of seeing the players go before them... and have picked up their methods, tricks, improving and modifying.

Athletes get better with each generation, that's just how it goes. And not just from a physical size-speed-strength aspect. They also improve from a skill, scheme, IQ aspect. That's just how it goes.

 

[Inimical]

Kevin Willis could play for Boston this season.

 

[LogicMan]

Kevin Willis this year? Yeah sad but true.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Its true. Just watch some old game film. The defense today is miles ahead of where it was back in the 80's. It was just a different style of play back then. The old matador defense... then hurry back on offense.

NBA players are much better shooters today than they were a few decades ago. They are much better athletes. They are bigger, faster, and stronger. They have the benefit of seeing the players go before them... and have picked up their methods, tricks, improving and modifying.

Athletes get better with each generation, that's just how it goes. And not just from a physical size-speed-strength aspect. They also improve from a skill, scheme, IQ aspect. That's just how it goes.

Link?

 

[GNG]

I just assumed everyone knew that Larry Bird was better than Lebron is now. Lebron would be crying when the game gets physical. Lebron has a good game, but Bird never gave up in the fourth quarter. Lebron by today's standards is in the top 15 to 20 players, but he is no Larry Bird.

Agreed. Larry Bird is better.

 

[trojanfan12]

You mean like in '84 where they gave up 110 ppg and still had the 14th best defense in terms of ppg?

databaseBasketball.com - NBA Basketball Statistics, Draft, Awards, and History

Shit...no one played defense like they do today, if we're talking about the 80's up until Detroit started beating ass.

Alex English and fucking Fat Lever (Yes...a guy named fucking Fat Lever!) used to put up monster numbers against the Lakers with the Nuggets. That's just how the league was back then. No one mentions Alex English as an all time player but in his prime he was damn near a 29-30ppg guy.

In the first game against Denver in 1984, the Lakers lost 130-146. There were less points scored in the All Star game that year.

Again, my guy, facts. Watch that old game film as well. It's all there. All this shit is much less subjective than you think...

Actually, it has a lot more to do with how offense was played back then. That Spurs team with the awesome ball movement that we watched win the title last year? That's how the game was played back then by everyone. When a team has excellent ball movement, it is going to lead to more open shots, no matter how good a defense is.

The Heat were one of the better defensive teams in the league and the Spurs embarrassed them because of their ball movement. The reason scores are lower now isn't because the defenses are better, it's because the offenses are worse. Everything is about iso's and spreading the floor so guys can go one on one. That slows the game, uses more of the shot clock and leads to lower scores.

 

[Clayton]

The reason scores are lower now isn't because the defenses are better, it's because the offenses are worse.

This doesn't make any sense because of spacing. The 3pt shot opened up the floor for more offensive opportunities. Players today are better at the 3pt shot.

 

[gordontrue]

Link?

3-pt shooting, free throw shooting, and effective fg% have all gotten better and better over the years and are at all-time highs. Its a pretty indefensible statement. You can pick a stat site and look it up. Its not a hard stat to come by.

Here's a link that cites several stats on it.

Here's an illustration... in 1986 Michael Cooper was 7th in the league at 3-pt shooting at 38%. Isaiah Thomas was 19th in the league at 31%.
If those guys shot those numbers last year... Cooper would be tied with PJ Tucker for 48th place... Isaiah Thomas would come in just above Thadeus Young ranking 143rd in the league.


Like Trojan pointed out... the argument for "better offense" in the 80's is that they moved the ball well and played more of a team offense than they do now. There is no way you can argue that the players (speaking generally) were better individually at offense or at shooting.

Now... if those 80's guys were getting better looks due to "team offense"... and still shooting a much worse percentage... that really shows just how much better shooters guys are today.

LeBron James... considered by many (those who don't pay attention to stats and are caught up on his first few years in the league) to be a poor shooter... would be a phenomenal shooter in the 50's, and 60's and a great one even in the 70's and 80's.

 

[trojanfan12]

This doesn't make any sense because of spacing. The 3pt shot opened up the floor for more offensive opportunities. Players today are better at the 3pt shot.

Actually, it does make sense. They had the 3 point shot back then too. What they didn't have was a lot of iso's where one guy has the ball in his hands for 10+ seconds trying to back a defender down in the paint or dribbling around trying to beat a defender off the dribble before passing out to a guy standing at the 3 point line.

Back in the 80's it was about getting up and down the floor and moving the ball. This led to quicker shots than we see today. It's much more common to see teams use most of the 24 second clock today than it was then.

 

[Clayton]

Actually, it does make sense. They had the 3 point shot back then too. What they didn't have was a lot of iso's where one guy has the ball in his hands for 10+ seconds trying to back a defender down in the paint or dribbling around trying to beat a defender off the dribble before passing out to a guy standing at the 3 point line.

Back in the 80's it was about getting up and down the floor and moving the ball. This led to quicker shots than we see today. It's much more common to see teams use most of the 24 second clock today than it was then.

Iso doesn't work. Its why Carmelo Anthony doesnt have any rings.

By Iso, you mean pick and roll or high screen and roll or triangle offense, right?

 

[trojanfan12]

Iso doesn't work. Its why Carmelo Anthony doesnt have any rings.

By Iso, you mean pick and roll or high screen and roll or triangle offense, right?

They may not work, but they are still used a lot. Although, more teams are moving back towards the 80's style ball movement. Teams like the Suns, Warriors, etc. are using it, the Spurs are the best at it. The Spurs remind me a bit of the 80's Celtics. They were much more of a half court offense type of team, but had excellent ball movement and a devastating fast break when it was available.

By iso's, I mean what you see 'Melo do a lot, Lebron would do it quite a bit in Miami (especially when Wade was out or struggling) where 1 guy has the ball and the other 4 guys "clear out" to allow him to go one on one. Pick and rolls and pick and pops have been around since basketball was invented and aren't iso's.

 

[Hornsstampede2.0]

Every generation gets bigger, faster, stronger, and better in Sports.
It is an irrefutable fact.


Only the NFL (not coincidentally the most successful), acknowledges the present era as the greatest era. The NFL embraces its rich legacy, but it never devalues its own current product as some inferior version of a product that peaked in quality 25 years ago.


The NBA does itself a dis-service if it continues to walk down that pathway like MLB did.


Nostalgia blinds us to cling to things that we know...or at least the memories we believe to know.
All the shitty memories of past athletes is wiped and we only see a polished idealized version.


And when faced with hardcore evidence to the contrary, we cling to vague lame notions like:
"They cared a lot more."
"They wanted to win more."
"They truly hated their opponents."
"They were not as pampered babies."


These are completely unsustainable statements with no way to quantify them. Yet Nostalgia forces us to accept them as truth.




I love the rich legacy of the NBA. I watched plenty of older players.
I appreciated what they did in their era.


But, I am not so bitter and closed minded to think for one second, that past generations are better.
Evolution is a process of constant improvement. It happens in Sports. It is not a bad thing.

 

[gordontrue]

Every generation gets bigger, faster, stronger, and better in Sports.
It is an irrefutable fact.


Only the NFL (not coincidentally the most successful), acknowledges the present era as the greatest era. The NFL embraces its rich legacy, but it never devalues its own current product as some inferior version of a product that peaked in quality 25 years ago.


The NBA does itself a dis-service if it continues to walk down that pathway like MLB did.


Nostalgia blinds us to cling to things that we know...or at least the memories we believe to know.
All the shitty memories of past athletes is wiped and we only see a polished idealized version.


And when faced with hardcore evidence to the contrary, we cling to vague lame notions like:
"They cared a lot more."
"They wanted to win more."
"They truly hated their opponents."
"They were not as pampered babies."


These are completely unsustainable statements with no way to quantify them. Yet Nostalgia forces us to accept them as truth.




I love the rich legacy of the NBA. I watched plenty of older players.
I appreciated what they did in their era.


But, I am not so bitter and closed minded to think for one second, that past generations are better.
Evolution is a process of constant improvement. It happens in Sports. It is not a bad thing.

 

[Clayton]

The NBA does itself a dis-service if it continues to walk down that pathway like MLB did.

For the record, most MLB fans have a decent grasp on things. The steroid era really forced MLB to grow up. Some players might still be on PEDs in baseball but its not as obvious as it is in football and basketball.

You have to compare players relative to eras. Yeah, not all eras are equal but if you're comparing a stacked Celtics team to a Spurs team with Boris Diaw then you have to realize that the game has changed

 

[DaBoltsNIsles]

It's to bad LeBron is playing in an era of basketball in which players get called for fouls that would never have been called when Bird played. LeBron is an outstanding player. He could play in any era, but he's nowhere near the player Bird was.

 

[Leroy Brown]

Actually, it has a lot more to do with how offense was played back then. That Spurs team with the awesome ball movement that we watched win the title last year? That's how the game was played back then by everyone. When a team has excellent ball movement, it is going to lead to more open shots, no matter how good a defense is.

The Heat were one of the better defensive teams in the league and the Spurs embarrassed them because of their ball movement. The reason scores are lower now isn't because the defenses are better, it's because the offenses are worse. Everything is about iso's and spreading the floor so guys can go one on one. That slows the game, uses more of the shot clock and leads to lower scores.

Sure, buddy...sure. Watch the defensive rotations, or lack thereof. Watch how many times defenders don't even jump while contesting a shot, hell, watch how many times no hand even goes up. It looks like great ball movement because most of the defenders are playing "fuq it" defense. The best thing to watch for is how slowly guys are attempting to get back on defense on missed shots...it's almost as if they are disappointed that they have to run back when they don't score on a possession.

Defense was laughable back then.

 

[uncfan103]

I am not old enough to have ever seen Larry play. But, isn't Dirk Nowitzski a better comparison?

 

[Leroy Brown]

It's to bad LeBron is playing in an era of basketball in which players get called for fouls that would never have been called when Bird played. LeBron is an outstanding player. He could play in any era, but he's nowhere near the player Bird was.

Laughable...everything about that statement.

The Myth of the Physical 80s | 22nd Timeout