Prime Jordan vs Prime Kobe

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Didnt say it was easy in genral, just WAYYY easier than it is now. Im not sure how this is even an argument. Every single bit of factual data backs me up but continue with the MJ lovefest if you like

Meh, not so much...

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Under today's rules, prime Jordan would be able to get off outside shots easier, because when you could body up perimeter players you had to turn your back to the defender to start a play. In this day and age Jordan would be able to start a play face up, which would make it easier for him to make that lighting quick first step, or get off one of his silky smooth jumpers.

 

[rmilia1]

Meh, not so much...

Yeah other than scoring averages and FG% there is NOTHING backing me up. MJ saying he could score 50 is certainly more pertinet than any actual facts and what not. LOL.

 

[rmilia1]

Under today's rules, prime Jordan would be able to get off outside shots easier, because when you could body up perimeter players you had to turn your back to the defender to start a play. In this day and age Jordan would be able to start a play face up, which would make it easier for him to make that lighting quick first step, or get off one of his silky smooth jumpers.

So now MJ was a great jump shooter?? LOL. Guy gets better every year. True mark of a champion MJ wasnt even one of the best 20 jump shooters during his era. His greateness laid in his ability to get to the hoop and to be the clutchest player of all time. He was a good shooter but nowhere close to elite.

 

[Flambo Gus]

Id take MJ in this one but MJ certainly wouldnt be my number 1 guy of all time in this scenario. Neither of these 2 guys really made anyone around them better in any true manner.

That's hilarious. Jordan motivated by fear. Not saying it was the best motivation, but you can't deny that he made others around him better through fear.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

So now MJ was a great jump shooter?? LOL. Guy gets better every year. True mark of a champion MJ wasnt even one of the best 20 jump shooters during his era. His greateness laid in his ability to get to the hoop and to be the clutchest player of all time. He was a good shooter but nowhere close to elite.

Now the truth comes out. You are a Jordan hater. Granted, early in his career he didn't have a great jump shot. But later in his career, when his athleticism started to fade, he developed an absolutely unstoppable turn around fade away. For you to say otherwise just exposes your bias. Either that or you never saw the man play.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Yeah other than scoring averages and FG% there is NOTHING backing me up. MJ saying he could score 50 is certainly more pertinet than any actual facts and what not. LOL.

I noticed you glossed what everybody else says about today"s D. HEY EVERYBODY! RMILIA KNOWS MORE ABOUT BASKETBALL THAN PHIL JACKSON, TEX WINTER AND LARRY BROWN, COMBINED!

 

[rmilia1]

Now the truth comes out. You are a Jordan hater. Granted, early in his career he didn't have a great jump shot. But later in his career, when his athleticism started to fade, he developed an absolutely unstoppable turn around fade away. For you to say otherwise just exposes your bias. Either that or you never saw the man play.

All greats become better shooters as their athleticiasm fades. They have to or they wont stay in the league. Magic became a good shooter later in his career, Dr J became a much better shooter etc etc. Of course MJ became a better shooter. He adapted his game to fit what he could do. Thats why he is an all time great. Even later in his career he wasnt a GREAT shooter, Lets focus on what the greats actually did great and not try to make them something they werent. The man is the greatest clutch player ever, the greatest scorer ever, the best ever at getting to the hoop and finishing and one of the best defenders ever. Its OK if we all admit he was just an OK jump shooter. Really, it will be fine.

 

[rmilia1]

I noticed you glossed what everybody else says about today"s D. HEY EVERYBODY! RMILIA KNOWS MORE ABOUT BASKETBALL THAN PHIL JACKSON, TEX WINTER AND LARRY BROWN, COMBINED!

Numbers are numbers man. If there was an outlier that I was trumpeting as proof then thats one thing but this is 19 years of data backing me up so yeah in this case those other guys are wrong but probably only because they are too close to it to see clearly. Happens all the time and why guys from the 50's and 60's still say Bill Russell was better than Shaq etc etc. I ahppen to be in the minority of people who grew up watching basketball in the 80's and 90's who can actually remember MJ for what he was. One of ,if not the greatest ever, but a guy who ( just like every other all timer ) needed a lot of help to win titles, a guy who could SCORE but wasnt a truly great shooter and absolutely the most clutch guy ever. Thats who he was.

 

[trojanfan12]

Hell no. Both these guys are totally me first players and thats OK. Every team needs scorers. I suppose you can make an argument that they both set up outside shooters with more open looks due to their ability to get to the nasket but that is really about it. IF I am one piece shy and have a solid cast of players I am most certainly not taking MJ or Kobe in their prime ahead of a player that makes everyone elses life easier. Center and PG are now and will always be the most important pieces to the puzzle as it pertains to winning titles and in lieu of a great PG you need a guy that can play multiple positions on offense and defense and open the court for everyone else.

Being a scorer doesn't make one a "me first" player. The position they played is called "Shooting Guard". A shooting guards job is to shoot the ball. The job description is in the name of the position for crying out loud.

If you have a shooting guard who doesn't shoot the ball very much................he's a point guard.

 

[trojanfan12]

Since the no hand checking rule was implemented scoring has gone up a bit but the league still favors defense as compared to the 70's-mid 90's. That is for certain.

Uh, no it doesn't. The scoring is down because so many teams run iso's as a big part of their offense. Iso's slow the game and reduce scoring.

The Heat were a great defensive team. They got shredded by the Spurs and gave up a lot of points because the Spurs play 80's style basketball with their constant ball and player movement.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

So where are the numbers? Please post them or direct me to the post number with them and then I will refute them. Thanks...

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

So what is an elite mid range shooting percentage in your opinion rmilia?

 

[rmilia1]

Alright I give up. 19 years of data is wrong, Scoring is down not because rules favor the defense ( like the zone rule ) but because teams mysteriously decided to run offense that prevents them from scoring ( although this has nothing to do with the defense remember ). Teams also arent shooting as well not because of defense but because they just cant shoot anymore. MJ was the greatest jump shooter ever and also the best ever at making a delicious crepe. Offenses could score 130 ppg now with all of the easy rules favoring offense but just really dont want to run that much as it hurts their feet and MJ could score 60 ppg now all while also finding the cure for diabetes. You have worn me down with opinion and conjecture and I succumb my facts in favor of senile Tex Winter telling me how running the triangle makes it easier to put the ball in the peach basket. Word!

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Alright I give up. 19 years of data is wrong, Scoring is down not because rules favor the defense ( like the zone rule ) but because teams mysteriously decided to run offense that prevents them from scoring ( although this has nothing to do with the defense remember ). Teams also arent shooting as well not because of defense but because they just cant shoot anymore. MJ was the greatest jump shooter ever and also the best ever at making a delicious crepe. Offenses could score 130 ppg now with all of the easy rules favoring offense but just really dont want to run that much as it hurts their feet and MJ could score 60 ppg now all while also finding the cure for diabetes. You have worn me down with opinion and conjecture and I succumb my facts in favor of senile Tex Winter telling me how running the triangle makes it easier to put the ball in the peach basket. Word!

Did you ever stop to think that just because scoring is down it just might not be from rules favoring defense but something else. I mean, do you not believe SMEs when they say defenses are softer now? Are you that married to being right in this conversation that while basketball isn't your life, you somehow happen to know more than these people that eat, drink and sleep basketball?

Great, scoring is down, which I believe. But you really think it is just because of the ability to play zone D? Really?

Show league wide shooting numbers to back up your statements that show shooting percentages are down. Show me possessions per game has stayed flat over the past 19 years. Show me something. Right now all you say is, "the data, the data." Well show me the data.

And what is an elite mid range jump shot % in your opinion?

By the way, you sound like a child in your rant. Nobody said any of those things. I am not sure why your jimmies are so rustled.

 

[gordontrue]

Interesting article on the topic of scoring being down due to defense...

In recent years more and more NBA coaches have signed up for the defensive philosophy, popularized by Tom Thibodeau since 2007-08, of "flooding ball-side box."

This is not the same as double-teaming, but it has some similarities. When the ball is on one side of the court, watch for this: Very often an extra defender sneaks over to join the action, bringing a crowd of defenders closer to the ball. It's something that became legal when the NBA began allowing zone defenses in 2001, but it took until 2008 for coaches to really figure out how to take best advantage.

That's when the big-time gunners started to disappear.

Flooding the side of the court with the ball makes everything tougher for that star scorer, starting when he makes the catch and assesses options. Driving lanes are tighter or closed off entirely. More defenders have more ability to get hands in faces. It's difficult to reach favored spots on the court, and to operate once there. These are the times that try virtuoso's souls.

And when there's an extra defender on one side of the court, the good play is pretty obvious: pass to the other side, where your team has the numbers advantage.

 

[rmilia1]

So what is an elite mid range shooting percentage in your opinion rmilia?

Alright I am going to try and explain this one more time. Here is a shot chart that has MJ's yearly totals from 1996-retirement ( since you stated he became a better shooter late in his career )

NBA Stats

The BEST he did in any of those years on shots outside 10 feet ( not even 15, just 10 ) was 44%. Im sure none of this matters to you but here it is anyway. LOL

 

[gordontrue]

Another great article.

Goes through NBA chronology fro m1970 to 2010 detailing league scoring average along with nba rule changes that coincide with scoring average changes.

It is popular to slander the defense of the NBA... in reality, the defense in todays' NBA is as sophisticated, skilled and effective as its ever been.

 

[TBBishop]

I'm taking Kobe. Not because I think Kobe is better than Jordan but because I hate Jordan's fucking guts!!

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Alright I am going to try and explain this one more time. Here is a shot chart that has MJ's yearly totals from 1996-retirement ( since you stated he became a better shooter late in his career )

NBA Stats

The BEST he did in any of those years on shots outside 10 feet ( not even 15, just 10 ) was 44%. Im sure none of this matters to you but here it is anyway. LOL

Thanks for giving me something to work with. Be right back. By the way, you never answered. What is an elite mid range %?