Prime Jordan vs Prime Kobe

[rmilia1]

Id take MJ in this one but MJ certainly wouldnt be my number 1 guy of all time in this scenario. Neither of these 2 guys really made anyone around them better in any true manner.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Where do you get this? Defender is a toss up? Kobe doesn't have a DOY. Defensive wins shares Kobe 44th, Jordan, 19th.

Jumpshot? 3P% is within .002. Do you have something else that tells us about jumpshots?

I didn't realize you wanted a stats contest...I just watched them play the games....on a team with Shaq...do you really think any player would ever win DPOY?

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Where do you get this? Defender is a toss up? Kobe doesn't have a DOY. Defensive wins shares Kobe 44th, Jordan, 19th.

Jumpshot? 3P% is within .002. Do you have something else that tells us about jumpshots?

My point here is I see these comparison all the time and they typically fall into fan contest so I threw out a few tangibles...MJ still wins this imo, but imo it's closer than what some might think.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Id take MJ in this one but MJ certainly wouldnt be my number 1 guy of all time in this scenario. Neither of these 2 guys really made anyone around them better in any true manner.

You are joking right?

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

My point here is I see these comparison all the time and they typically fall into fan contest so I threw out a few tangibles...MJ still wins this imo, but imo it's closer than what some might think.

That is all gut it seems to me. I like metrics my self...

 

[ATL96Steeler]

That is all gut it seems to me. I like metrics my self...

I hear ya.

Pistol Pete put up some incredible #s but based on the eye test, I'd take Stockton any day of the week...he was a better basketball player imo.

MJ was better, but it's close imo.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

I hear ya.

Pistol Pete put up some incredible #s but based on the eye test, I'd take Stockton any day of the week...he was a better basketball player imo.

MJ was better, but it's close imo.

You are right. There is something to an eye test...

 

[rmilia1]

You are joking right?

Hell no. Both these guys are totally me first players and thats OK. Every team needs scorers. I suppose you can make an argument that they both set up outside shooters with more open looks due to their ability to get to the nasket but that is really about it. IF I am one piece shy and have a solid cast of players I am most certainly not taking MJ or Kobe in their prime ahead of a player that makes everyone elses life easier. Center and PG are now and will always be the most important pieces to the puzzle as it pertains to winning titles and in lieu of a great PG you need a guy that can play multiple positions on offense and defense and open the court for everyone else.

 

[rmilia1]

Something else to remember when debating MJ's greatenss vs guys currently in the league is that current rules greatly favor defenders as opposed to how the league used to oerate. For the first 11 years of MJ's career the average PPG for an NBA team was over 106. Since the 1996 season we have only recently seen teams even break the 100 ppg barrier as an aggregate and from 95-96 til 0708 it NEVER happened ( league average was slightly over 94 PPG ). Not saying MJ couldnt have flourished in a more defender friendly league as he was also a great defender but he most certainly wouldnt have put up the offensive number he did playing in the mid 80's- the mid 90's. Just food for thought.

 

[ATL96Steeler]

Hell no. Both these guys are totally me first players and thats OK. Every team needs scorers. I suppose you can make an argument that they both set up outside shooters with more open looks due to their ability to get to the nasket but that is really about it. IF I am one piece shy and have a solid cast of players I am most certainly not taking MJ or Kobe in their prime ahead of a player that makes everyone elses life easier. Center and PG are now and will always be the most important pieces to the puzzle as it pertains to winning titles and in lieu of a great PG you need a guy that can play multiple positions on offense and defense and open the court for everyone else.

Their jobs were to score, but "me first" I don't agree with..."I suppose you can...."

Absolutely you can, MJ practically made careers for guys like Craig Hodges, Steve Kerr, and Kobe with Fisher.

Do you think those guys are NBA head coaches today if they didn't play with Kobe and MJ?

The Heat won back to back titles with a PG that no one will remember in 5 yrs, and a C who is pretty good, but really a 4.

Yes, back in the day you needed a strong 1 & 5 spots to win titles...the Swing player or the off the dribble player with size changed that formula.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Rules favor defense? No hand checking anymore. There used to be no flagrants so you could really rough up a guy driving the lane. Someone posted, maybe in another thread as to why scoring is down. Part of it is the style of iso ball...

 

[Kinzu]

Something else to remember when debating MJ's greatenss vs guys currently in the league is that current rules greatly favor defenders as opposed to how the league used to oerate. For the first 11 years of MJ's career the average PPG for an NBA team was over 106. Since the 1996 season we have only recently seen teams even break the 100 ppg barrier as an aggregate and from 95-96 til 0708 it NEVER happened ( league average was slightly over 94 PPG ). Not saying MJ couldnt have flourished in a more defender friendly league as he was also a great defender but he most certainly wouldnt have put up the offensive number he did playing in the mid 80's- the mid 90's. Just food for thought.

Despite what the PPG might say I don't think today's NBA is very defender friendly compared to MJ's early years. During much of his career it was not a foul to hand check and flagrant fouls did not exist. You would have guys driving the lane and getting clotheslined. Today that would be a flagrant and likely a flagrant 2, but back then it was just another foul unless it was so vicious they called a technical.

The only good change for defenders since Jordan's era has been Zone Defense. That on top of the ISO heavy teams over the years is likely what has lowered the PPG over the years. I think teams are finally catching on how to get back to team ball to beat Zones though.

 

[rmilia1]

Rules favor defense? No hand checking anymore. There used to be no flagrants so you could really rough up a guy driving the lane. Someone posted, maybe in another thread as to why scoring is down. Part of it is the style of iso ball...

Since the no hand checking rule was implemented scoring has gone up a bit but the league still favors defense as compared to the 70's-mid 90's. That is for certain.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Here it is. Courtesy of trojanfan.

I disagree about the defense. The pace of the game was what was different. We all saw how basketball was played in the 80's watching what the Spurs did to the Heat. It was about ball movement, player movement and spacing. It wasn't that the defense was bad, it was that the offense was that good.

I actually think that some of the criticism of the Heat's defense was unwarranted. When a team is moving the ball and players with the kind of precision the Spurs were, open shots are inevitable and the pace of the offense wears the defense down. First rule of basketball: The ball moves faster than the man.

The Bad Boys changed things because they figured out that there was no way that they were getting past teams like the Lakers and Celtics trying to play the style of basketball that those teams played. So, they ratcheted up the physical play to unseen levels and that slowed the game and the scoring started to drop.

Then, in the 90's with MJ and league expansion, iso's started becoming more and more popular which combined with the more physical defense, caused the scoring drop even more.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Since the no hand checking rule was implemented scoring has gone up a bit but the league still favors defense as compared to the 70's-mid 90's. That is for certain.

How so? Give me the rules that favor D.

 

[rmilia1]

Despite what the PPG might say I don't think today's NBA is very defender friendly compared to MJ's early years. During much of his career it was not a foul to hand check and flagrant fouls did not exist. You would have guys driving the lane and getting clotheslined. Today that would be a flagrant and likely a flagrant 2, but back then it was just another foul unless it was so vicious they called a technical.

The only good change for defenders since Jordan's era has been Zone Defense. That on top of the ISO heavy teams over the years is likely what has lowered the PPG over the years. I think teams are finally catching on how to get back to team ball to beat Zones though.

Absolutely. zone is the primary difference and it is a HUGE difference. The reason guys like MJ could get to the rim so easy was he had guys like Wennington, Cartwright, Longley etc that pulled the oppositions big men away from the basket and made it possible for him to do so. Those guys were a perfect compliment to MJ because they were basically 15-18 foot spot up shooters and they made it almost impossible to stop guys from getting to the basket. If those rules were in place now guys like Lebron would be easily dropping 30+ ppg.

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

Absolutely. zone is the primary difference and it is a HUGE difference. The reason guys like MJ could get to the rim so easy was he had guys like Wennington, Cartwright, Longley etc that pulled the oppositions big men away from the basket and made it possible for him to do so. Those guys were a perfect compliment to MJ because they were basically 15-18 foot spot up shooters and they made it almost impossible to stop guys from getting to the basket. If those rules were in place now guys like Lebron would be easily dropping 30+ ppg.

Yep. Looks easy...

And coaches say with today's rules, Jordan would average 40...

 

[rmilia1]

As a example the WORST average year for FG% from 1985-1995 was 46.6% since 1995 the BEST FG% in any NBA season is 45.9%. Now I guess you can say guys dont shoot like they used to but when the last 18 years have ALL been worse than the worst single year in the prior 10 Im going to tell you that rule changes have certainly played a part.

 

[rmilia1]

Yep. Looks easy...

And coaches say with today's rules, Jordan would average 40...

Didnt say it was easy in genral, just WAYYY easier than it is now. Im not sure how this is even an argument. Every single bit of factual data backs me up but continue with the MJ lovefest if you like

 

[HuskerCradle2Grave]

During a 2007 L.A. Lakers pre-season broadcast, Phil Jackson was asked how he thought Michael Jordan would perform today, Phil said: "Michael would average 45 with these rules."

Tim Grover, who has trained Kobe, Lebron, and Jordan, was asked who would win a 1-on-1 battle of Jordan vs. either of the other two:
Tim Grover: "Oh, Michael. No question. From a physical and mental standpoint, he's the best I've ever seen. If he were playing now, with the way the refs call everything, and with all the padding these guys wear, he'd average 40 or 50 a night if he wanted."

MJ also says due to defensive rule changes like hand checking, if he played in today's NBA, dropping triple digits would be reachable for him. “It's less physical and the rules have changed, obviously." says Jordan. “Based on these rules, if I had to play with my style of play, I'm pretty sure I would have fouled out or I would have been at the free throw line pretty often and I could have scored 100 points.”

"You can't even touch a guy now," says Charlotte coach Larry Brown. "The college game is much more physical than our game. I always tease Michael [Jordan], if he played today, he'd average 50."

“The history book inspires them to be some of the best,” said Jordan. “Rules have changed to help them. I could have averaged 50 points today!”

Question for Clyde Drexler:
"In the current league where there is no hand checking and no ruff play how much better would your numbers be?"
Clyde Drexler: "Oh, tremendously better, from shooting percentage to points per game everything would be up, and our old teams would score a lot more points, and that is saying something because we could score a lot back then. I do think there should be an asterisk next to some of these scoring leaders, because it is much different trying to score with a forearm in your face. It is harder to score with that resistance. You had to turn your back on guys defending you back in the day with all the hand checking that was going on. For guys who penetrate these days, it's hunting season. Yes, now you can play (floating)zone(legally), but teams rarely do."

"The defensive rules, the hand checking, the ability to make contact on a guy in certain areas .... [have] all been taken away from the game. If Kobe could get 81, I think Michael could get 100 in today's game."- Scottie Pippen January 2006

Craig Hodges is the Lakers shooting coach, get a look at what he said:
Q: "If you could take one player in their prime, would you take Michael Jordan or Kobe?"
A: "M.J., all day. There's no comparison. M.J. could score 100 points in this era. You can't hand-check now. Imagine that trying to guard M.J. It would be crazy."

Hall of Famer Rick Barry, a keen observer of the game, said he would love to see players of the past getting to attack the basket under the new officiating. “They’d score a lot more,” he said.

Tex Winter said. "Players today can get to the basket individually much easier."

Asked if he could defend Jordan under today’s interpretation of the rules, Dumars first laughed, “It would have been virtually impossible to defend Michael Jordan based on the way the game’s being called right now.”


To you sir...