Daniels vs Maye: Final thoughts

[Stymietee]

btw Higgins wants 24 per. i threw out 29 per as a max. That's reasonable, its the going rate for vets.
Am i missing something? Higgins is a beast, he helped his team reach a superbowl, i don't get how this isn't a no brainer.
We have money. Of course i respect your opinion gkekoa, i just don't get how this is an topic for a position thats so weak on our team

Working on the many reports surrounding Higgins new contract requirements, he wants something similiar to what Mike Pittan just signed with Indy. That 20M per has now increased to 21.8M because they've franchised tagged him.

Report: Higgins wanted similar deal to Colts' Pittman​

www.thescore.com/nfl/news/2903927


Bleacher Report
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10119187-nfl...

NFL Rumors: Tee Higgins Eyed Pittman's Contract; Bengals Never ...​

Web5 days ago · The Pittman comparison makes sense, as he is a similar age at 26 years old with two seasons of more than 1,000 receiving yards. Yet Cincinnati didn't look to give him …




Here's a look at Michael Pittman contract. Getting Tee Higgins for anything close to these numbers is a bargain.




Even at 21.8M per the 25-year-old Higgins is a bargain and any deal could be a sign and trade to lock him into those parameters. Right now, at those rates, I'd bargain with Cincy offering our fourth next year, if they balked then our third next year, and if they balked again our second to get this move done. If they wanted more, I'd walk away and tell them, if they've had a change of mind, call us.

 

[Stymietee]

One other thing, here's a look at Terry McLaurin's contract details: (You'd be getting a younger, statistically better WR in Higgins for less money)

 

[gkekoa]

Well damn, where do I begin to respond to this!

I've been the one who has made it a point to not use poor QB play as an excuse for TM, in fact in my response that you're now answering I've called it "sideways rationale." Did you miss that or just skip over it? Here's what you've further posted in response to me and my answers to them.

You wrote:

1- "Washington does not and should not think about short-term fixes this season. Does Tee help our WR room? Perhaps but I doubt he performs as well for us because most FAs do not perform as well on new teams."

Ans: Tee Higgins is 25 years old and is not, repeat NOT a short-term fix as you suggest. He absolutely helps our WR room and any suggestion that his future (possibly poor) performance is directly tied to "most FA's" past performances is ridiculous (He's NOT a FA)

2- "If all we need is height and weight, Cam Sims was that guy. Obviously, I am not saying Sims is as good as Higgins but height and weight does not make a good WR. There are quite a few short #1 WRs."

Ans: OK, where's the hidden camera? You're pranking me, right? Nobody ever said, inferred, or instigated this singular, purposely narrowed perspective. I have to ask, are you OK, man?

3- "I agree TH is the best available. I disagree that it is a good investment."

Ans: We agree on the first part and completely disagree on the second. I would like to know why you believe that it's not a good investment. I will post in answer to @Skin'EmAll the actual economic rationale for making this move. Please post any countering physical evidence that you have that suggests that it's not a good investment.

4- "I am for staying with the status quo."

Ans: Then you're completely alone and/or haven't been paying attention to what's happening with this team. To be clear THEY, aren't staying with the "status quo" organizationally, teamwide, or specifically concerning this position. (They drafted a WR and Samuel is with Buffalo) I get it, some here still want to hold onto the notion that TM is enough as a WR1, instead of being even better as a WR2. That logic escapes me but to each his own. Let's deal with facts.
Perhaps we can agree that statistical rankings that don't have your team in the top 12, then your guys must be either middle of the pack or worse, correct? Is that good enough?, perhaps, for some, but if the goal is winning games or more lofty, winning championships, then the answer to it being good enough has to be NO! Here are the top 12 WR corps in the NFL.

Ranking NFL's top 12 WR trios for 2024: Where Dolphins unit ranks …​

Web1 day ago · A reordering of the NFL's wide receiver trios after the 2024 NFL Draft. ... along with Tyreek Hill while ranking ninth in the league in receiving yards (1,255). He has recorded over 1,000 ...

AND...

Here's another way to look at the guy that you want to preserve as your status quo WR1. After reading this, with the notion that TM will get better with better QBing as some here suggest, then logically so will Higgins.

NFL Wide Receiver Power Rankings 2024 | Top 50 WRs Ranked​

5- "Whose goals are those?"

Well, here's what I wrote "arming our new QB, upgrading his weapons, making this current team as competitive as possible and as quickly as possible" While they certainly aren't specifically mine, reasonable, rational, thoughtful, logical people would see these goals as inarguably the next steps after organizational overhaul, drafting a QB second overall, and retooling almost 50% of the team thus far. The current moves that this management has made to this point are 100% indicative of those goals.

Exactly. You said TM can’t blame poor QB play but Tee did very little last season. So Tee gets to blame bad QB play?

1- I already stated he improves the WR room. The improvement he brings is not worth the investment is my claim.

2- You have continually referred to TH height and weight as something that is of #1 desirability.

3- I do not believe 1000yards and 5 TDs is worth bringing in for a second round pick plus 25 mil/season. I believe that can be drafted on a rookie contract. I also believe that his 1000 yard seasons can be attributed to a far superior QB.

4- The status quo is what we currently have. Not what we have already done. If we are going by that game, I have already stated and shown I would have got a couple of WRs in the draft.

5- I would disagree with the moves we have made so far being as good as we can, as soon as we can. Most of the moves we made were stability moves that provide short term relief. We didn’t go after the 15 sack/season guys. Most of the players we got were competitors on short term contracts, while stocking this team with BPA in the draft with our many top 100 picks. That is a move for the future…not the now.


We do need to give JD the best opportunity to succeed but that is not arookie season thing. That is a long term job. I just want to protect him this season and supply weapons in the future.

 

[chillerdab]

I find it fascinating the players that Sty champions.

I mean this in thr most complimentary way, Sty: you certainly have a unique perspective on things!

I’m not seeing the value added by bringing in Tee Highins compared to the associated costs.

I also know that i’ve read enough of your posts to know that there is an alternate perspective that I would be wise to consider.

Just my .02

 

[Skin'EmAll]

What I'm perceiving is folks feel Higgins won't make a difference this year in wins? Is that correct? Because, that's not why I personally am banging on the table for him.
I'm looking at it from the length of his contract. You're set at the 1 and the 2WR and now you can build through the draft in other areas. We will never get over the 8 wins hump without above average/elite talent in key areas. If Higgins isn't worth 20+ then why is Terry? What higgins is asking for is the expected rate from his employer. I for one expect 8 wins this season BUT expect more the following. It simply won't happen with what we currently have at WR, CB and S

 

[gkekoa]

What I'm perceiving is folks feel Higgins won't make a difference this year in wins? Is that correct? Because, that's not why I personally am banging on the table for him.
I'm looking at it from the length of his contract. You're set at the 1 and the 2WR and now you can build through the draft in other areas. We will never get over the 8 wins hump without above average/elite talent in key areas. If Higgins isn't worth 20+ then why is Terry? What higgins is asking for is the expected rate from his employer. I for one expect 8 wins this season BUT expect more the following. It simply won't happen with what we currently have at WR, CB and S

I think TH could make a difference in one or two wins this season. I also feel a draft pick at WR can make a difference in one or two wins the following season. I too am looking at the length of the contract and that is a detriment because we will push back cap hits that will get exponentially larger for a WR who tops out at 1000/7 with an elite passer. We still have not figured out Dotson and now have McCaffery…both of whom would be limited by the addition.

We know what TM is. We do not know what TH is after getting paid. I can’t think of a single WR who left their team as the #2 and exceeded that production elsewhere.

 

[Skin'EmAll]

I think TH could make a difference in one or two wins this season. I also feel a draft pick at WR can make a difference in one or two wins the following season. I too am looking at the length of the contract and that is a detriment because we will push back cap hits that will get exponentially larger for a WR who tops out at 1000/7 with an elite passer. We still have not figured out Dotson and now have McCaffery…both of whom would be limited by the addition.

We know what TM is. We do not know what TH is after getting paid. I can’t think of a single WR who left their team as the #2 and exceeded that production elsewhere.

I agree we haven't figured out Dotson, I'm much more optimistic about McCaffrey than Doston, i have no desire to see Crowder every week as a fixture in this offense. You make a valid and perhaps carefully worded point about WR2s exceeding production in a new team, BUT again as a true WR1 he's going to make everyone else's job easier and likely help Terry thrive as well as the other pass catchers.(my opinion) our starting WR room right now is not in good shape. Again i respect you reasons for no interest in Higgins but i have major concerns about what we are putting on the field

 

[gkekoa]

I agree we haven't figured out Dotson, I'm much more optimistic about McCaffrey than Doston, i have no desire to see Crowder every week as a fixture in this offense. You make a valid and perhaps carefully worded point about WR2s exceeding production in a new team, BUT again as a true WR1 he's going to make everyone else's job easier and likely help Terry thrive as well as the other pass catchers.(my opinion) our starting WR room right now is not in good shape. Again i respect you reasons for no interest in Higgins but i have major concerns about what we are putting on the field

Except he is not a WR1.

 

[Skin'EmAll]

Except he is not a WR1.

correct, not on the Bengals.

 

[skinsdad62]

What I'm perceiving is folks feel Higgins won't make a difference this year in wins? Is that correct? Because, that's not why I personally am banging on the table for him.
I'm looking at it from the length of his contract. You're set at the 1 and the 2WR and now you can build through the draft in other areas. We will never get over the 8 wins hump without above average/elite talent in key areas. If Higgins isn't worth 20+ then why is Terry? What higgins is asking for is the expected rate from his employer. I for one expect 8 wins this season BUT expect more the following. It simply won't happen with what we currently have at WR, CB and S

right now he is a one year rental and you are giving up assets to get him when you simply need to be patient

 

[gkekoa]

correct, not on the Bengals.

Not on any team. Who has left a team as a #2 and become a number one?

 

[Stymietee]

Exactly. You said TM can’t blame poor QB play but Tee did very little last season. So Tee gets to blame bad QB play?

1- I already stated he improves the WR room. The improvement he brings is not worth the investment is my claim.

2- You have continually referred to TH height and weight as something that is of #1 desirability.

3- I do not believe 1000yards and 5 TDs is worth bringing in for a second round pick plus 25 mil/season. I believe that can be drafted on a rookie contract. I also believe that his 1000 yard seasons can be attributed to a far superior QB.

4- The status quo is what we currently have. Not what we have already done. If we are going by that game, I have already stated and shown I would have got a couple of WRs in the draft.

5- I would disagree with the moves we have made so far being as good as we can, as soon as we can. Most of the moves we made were stability moves that provide short term relief. We didn’t go after the 15 sack/season guys. Most of the players we got were competitors on short term contracts, while stocking this team with BPA in the draft with our many top 100 picks. That is a move for the future…not the now.


We do need to give JD the best opportunity to succeed but that is not arookie season thing. That is a long term job. I just want to protect him this season and supply weapons in the future.

That's not what I wrote! Tee gets no credit for bad QB play and neither does Terry. They are what their record says they are. I hope that you're clear on this now.

1. You're entitled to your opinion, and so am I.

2. No I have not, you're cherry-picking my responses and responding to out-of-context parts of it.

3. Again, you're entitled to that opinion, however, the "status quo" defers the pressing need to upgrade now to another time in the future... next year's draft. The status quo also virtually guarantees that any sign of struggle by Daniels, because he doesn't have enough weapons, will be enough for some here to begin calling him a bust or for the backup QB to come in. Perhaps we'll get revisionists to say that trading Howell was a mistake and all the BS that has already been displayed on this board over the years.

4. ????

5. Every move made thus far has been upgrades where needed. They are certainly not stability moves (whatever that means) because, believe it or not, games will be played this year, and winning as many of them as possible remains a primary goal.

QB is different from all other positions, so, first impressions matter... you know... rookie seasons. Once established as the answer, the long-term plans kick in, including, moves to make the team a championship one. We all hope that they can protect him throughout his career, but once again, part of that protection has to be giving him better weapons than we've had before. That is, of course, unless you believe that protecting him now is dismissable or worse, doesn't count.

 

[Stymietee]

right now he is a one year rental and you are giving up assets to get him when you simply need to be patient

Did you miss the part where he wants a new contract and I suggested a sign-and-trade huh? So, he wouldn't be a "one-year rental" I understand how patience works, but to suggest that one party is giving up assets without recognizing that, in return, improving your team, means you're gaining assets is... well... puzzling. ( I'm going to bookmark a lot of these posts on this thread)

 

[Stymietee]

I find it fascinating the players that Sty champions.

I mean this in thr most complimentary way, Sty: you certainly have a unique perspective on things!

I’m not seeing the value added by bringing in Tee Highins compared to the associated costs.

I also know that i’ve read enough of your posts to know that there is an alternate perspective that I would be wise to consider.

Just my .02

No disrespect intended but let's be clear on players that I'm "championing" so there's no confusion. Every player that I want for this team is, from my perspective the best player available at a position of need. (or one that could be acquired in some manner.)

Honestly, I find that the unique perspective thingy goes the other way. The best example that I can give of this is one where I saw the previous version of this team as a 4-5 win one while damn near everyone saw something more lofty.

How much of that associated cost is too much when the return is an improvement on your product and making every attempt to protect your most valuable asset? Fear that the team/organization is losing something flies in the face of its historical position as a bottom dweller in the division, conference, and league! I know that... posting this is harsh, but it's also factual and consistent with my not being a "fan' (fanatic) blinded by fanaticism. (The last part is NOT intended as me pointing fingers, at you or anyone else here, it's just more clarification on who I am, what drives me, and what doesn't.) If anyone is offended, my apologies!

 

[Stymietee]

I think TH could make a difference in one or two wins this season. I also feel a draft pick at WR can make a difference in one or two wins the following season. I too am looking at the length of the contract and that is a detriment because we will push back cap hits that will get exponentially larger for a WR who tops out at 1000/7 with an elite passer. We still have not figured out Dotson and now have McCaffery…both of whom would be limited by the addition.

We know what TM is. We do not know what TH is after getting paid. I can’t think of a single WR who left their team as the #2 and exceeded that production elsewhere.

Ladies and gentlemen, From the "Sty has a long memory file" subtitled, "I remember what a lot of you said about the guy" I give you... Pierre Andre Garcon. ( An Indy WR2 who most of you claimed to be a WR1 once he came here)

 

[chillerdab]

Garçon was the de facto #1 here, true, but was "protected" by the fact that he was lining up alongside DeSean Jackson - one of the best deep ball wrs in NFL history.

The case could be made that a "DeSean Jackson type" wr is who TM needs in order to reach Garçon status.

 

[skinsdad62]

Did you miss the part where he wants a new contract and I suggested a sign-and-trade huh? So, he wouldn't be a "one-year rental" I understand how patience works, but to suggest that one party is giving up assets without recognizing that, in return, improving your team, means you're gaining assets is... well... puzzling. ( I'm going to bookmark a lot of these posts on this thread)

sign and trades dont happen in the NFL , when you trade you take the chance he walks , the bears won the 49ers lost .

 

[skinsdad62]

The unrestricted free agency status prevents the team from stopping or financially benefiting from a new deal the player may sign with any other team(s); so, the player could sign with another team, leaving the original team with neither money nor a replacement (i.e., a player traded from the acquiring team, to them) ...

sign and trade isnt in the CBA


In the NFL contacts are not capped so there is no need to sign and trade like they do in the NBA.

 

[Stymietee]

Garçon was the de facto #1 here, true, but was "protected" by the fact that he was lining up alongside DeSean Jackson - one of the best deep ball wrs in NFL history.

The case could be made that a "DeSean Jackson type" wr is who TM needs in order to reach Garçon status.

Yeah. No doubt that D. Jackson was a difference maker in the 3 seasons out of 5 that Garcon was here. (Josh Morgan and Leonard Hankerson started with him in 2012 and 2013 respectively)

Good debating points about a DeSean Jackson, although it can be further reasoned that, as was the case with Garcon, a player like Jackson would also relegate Terry to WR2 status.

 

[Stymietee]

The unrestricted free agency status prevents the team from stopping or financially benefiting from a new deal the player may sign with any other team(s); so, the player could sign with another team, leaving the original team with neither money nor a replacement (i.e., a player traded from the acquiring team, to them) ...

sign and trade isnt in the CBA


In the NFL contacts are not capped so there is no need to sign and trade like they do in the NBA.

Again, Higgins is not an unrestricted free agent. He's been tagged this year and officially a member of the Bengals, who as a condition of this trade allow Washington to contractually agree with him as a condition of that trade. Moves like that happen a lot in the NFL.