Penn State or Michigan? Which team is more likely to end Ohio State's Big Ten East dominance?

[Wamu]

That sounded better in your head.

Just going by what AG said.

 

[fishinabarrel]

Just going by what AG said.

You went full AG. Never go full AG

 

[Wamu]

You went full AG. Never go full AG

My bad.

 

[ralphiewvu]

1. Yeah, that's sort of the point. This will be the first year he's ever had to develop a QB. He's only won games with transfer QBs who developed elsewhere. It's problematic that a coach has been somewhere for 5 years and is only now having to show that he can win with a QB he himself has actually developed.
2. Sure it does. But it doesn't have coaches who have been around long other than Don Brown. As I illustrated already, michigan's defense took a step back last year after losing two important coaches. Now they've lost two more. That's sort of a big deal. Also, it's not like PSU doesn't have a likely top 5 defense nationally, or that Wisconsin doesn't have stout defenses every year.
3. The 2020 PSU team could very well be the best one Franklin has had at PSU. His defense is going to be incredibly elite. He has arguably the top RB stable in the B1G, an elite play-making TE, and an experienced and talented OL. They are going to be an extremely good team with more going for them than michigan. Meanwhile, Wisconsin is going to have another ~top 10 offensive line nationally, an experienced QB and solid play-makers. Above all, though, both of these teams have better coaching staffs than michigan, which is going to be the difference IMO.

And to your last point, I am again asking what you're talking about?

1) He hasn’t done shit with quarterbacks but still he hasn’t lost to PSU or Wisconsin at home. So expecting him to lose when he’s been winning (at home) while Continuing to not develop QBs is Silly at this point.

2) Don Brown is still there and they have talent, I’m not going to continue to pretend the sky is falling because he has had to replace 2 more position coaches. An the argument isn’t whose defense is better. I am 100% on board with PSU being better. Wisconsin maybe.

3) Again, both Wisconsin and PSU have had better teams in the past while visiting Michigan and have still lost. Penn States offense last year wasn’t great. Wisconsin lost their RB, best receiver and some off the o line. I don’t expect ethier to win at Michigan this year. Especially Wisconsin no matter who is coaching.

An you will defend any B1G team simply because they share a conference with OSU. Stop playing dumb.

 

[Across The Field]

1) He hasn’t done shit with quarterbacks but still he hasn’t lost to PSU or Wisconsin at home. So expecting him to lose when he’s been winning (at home) while Continuing to not develop QBs is Silly at this point.

2) Don Brown is still there and they have talent, I’m not going to continue to pretend the sky is falling because he has had to replace 2 more position coaches. An the argument isn’t whose defense is better. I am 100% on board with PSU being better. Wisconsin maybe.

3) Again, both Wisconsin and PSU have had better teams in the past while visiting Michigan and have still lost. Penn States offense last year wasn’t great. Wisconsin lost their RB, best receiver and some off the o line. I don’t expect ethier to win at Michigan this year. Especially Wisconsin no matter who is coaching.

An you will defend any B1G team simply because they share a conference with OSU. Stop playing dumb.

1. Not sure how you're not understanding this. In the past years, he's had the benefit of an experienced veteran QB that was developed somewhere else. This year, he's got nothing but inexperience at the QB position, and it's guys that he's been tasked with developing, something he has failed to demonstrate he can do successfully to this point.

Also, Harbaugh has faced PSU and Wisconsin at home twice. We're not talking about it being like 8 or 9 games that he's won. I fail to see how games that were played 2 and 4 years ago with very different players on both sides suddenly mean so much.

2. Brown is there, but as we saw last year, he wasn't as effective without Mattison and Washington. Now he has two more new coaches to break in. It's not unfair to be skeptical of their defense, especially considering they lost 5 defensive players to the draft a couple months ago.

3. Not sure what years you're saying they were better. 2016 was michigan's best team by far and they were better than PSU and Wisconsin that year. 2018 Wisconsin was 8-5 and 2018 PSU was 9-4 while michigan won 10 games. I'd take 2019 PSU's offense over 2020 michigan's, and when does Wisconsin ever struggle to have dominant rushing offenses and high end offensive lines? Why would that suddenly end?

And who/when did I last have to defend from the B1G that beat OSU? I don't remember ever pimping any B1G team out to anyone that beat OSU.

 

[ralphiewvu]

1. Not sure how you're not understanding this. In the past years, he's had the benefit of an experienced veteran QB that was developed somewhere else. This year, he's got nothing but inexperience at the QB position, and it's guys that he's been tasked with developing, something he has failed to demonstrate he can do successfully to this point.

Also, Harbaugh has faced PSU and Wisconsin at home twice. We're not talking about it being like 8 or 9 games that he's won. I fail to see how games that were played 2 and 4 years ago with very different players on both sides suddenly mean so much.

2. Brown is there, but as we saw last year, he wasn't as effective without Mattison and Washington. Now he has two more new coaches to break in. It's not unfair to be skeptical of their defense, especially considering they lost 5 defensive players to the draft a couple months ago.

3. Not sure what years you're saying they were better. 2016 was michigan's best team by far and they were better than PSU and Wisconsin that year. 2018 Wisconsin was 8-5 and 2018 PSU was 9-4 while michigan won 10 games. I'd take 2019 PSU's offense over 2020 michigan's, and when does Wisconsin ever struggle to have dominant rushing offenses and high end offensive lines? Why would that suddenly end?



And who/when did I last have to defend from the B1G that beat OSU? I don't remember ever pimping any B1G team out to anyone that beat OSU.

1) Those QBs have been a disaster for him. Stop trying to pretend it was some great benefit. Still, he beat PSU and Wisky at home. He’s been there 5 years dude. Stop acting like he’s been there 40 years and have only played PSU and wisky twice. A ranked Wisky twice and a ranked PSU once. Suddenly expecting said teams that couldn’t beat him with good teams then certainly doesn’t point to them winning with good teams now.

2) I do that on the basis that UM has reloaded well on defense through Harbaughs years and both PSU and Wiskys offenses aren’t barn burners.

3) I’m arguing 2016 on the basis of how the finished. UM choked away both at Iowa and At Ohio state. Both Wisconsin and PSU finished ahead of UM in the top 10 that year. But I won’t disagree that UM could have an argument for being better. Sure you can have both PSU’s offense and Wisconsin. Neither has won at UM under Harbaugh at this point. That’s why expecting them both to do it I don’t see.

Really? You tried pimping out Indiana PSU as an amazing game compared to a rivalry PAC game. Saying you don’t have the bias is hilarity.

 

[Across The Field]

1) Those QBs have been a disaster for him. Stop trying to pretend it was some great benefit. Still, he beat PSU and Wisky at home. He’s been there 5 years dude. Stop acting like he’s been there 40 years and have only played PSU and wisky twice. A ranked Wisky twice and a ranked PSU once. Suddenly expecting said teams that couldn’t beat him with good teams then certainly doesn’t point to them winning with good teams now.

2) I do that on the basis that UM has reloaded well on defense through Harbaughs years and both PSU and Wiskys offenses aren’t barn burners.

3) I’m arguing 2016 on the basis of how the finished. UM choked away both at Iowa and At Ohio state. Both Wisconsin and PSU finished ahead of UM in the top 10 that year. But I won’t disagree that UM could have an argument for being better. Sure you can have both PSU’s offense and Wisconsin. Neither has won at UM under Harbaugh at this point. That’s why expecting them both to do it I don’t see.

Really? You tried pimping out Indiana PSU as an amazing game compared to a rivalry PAC game. Saying you don’t have the bias is hilarity.

1. Not sure how you can say they were a "disaster". They weren't putting up Justin Fields-type numbers, but they were hardly "disasters". That's just ignorant. However, you're just further proving my point. He didn't get exceptional results from already established, veteran QBs, so why would anyone think he's suddenly going to get better results from inexperienced QBs? Also, again, two games against a team from two and four years ago mean nothing for this year.

2. They have had solid enough defenses under Harbaugh, but he's never had the coaching turnover like he had last year and again this year. That's the biggest concern I would think they should have.

3. 2016 michigan was undoubtedly the best team Harbaugh has had at michigan and it's not even close. Ask any michigan fan and they'll tell you the same. That was a really, really good team. They haven't been that good since.

Are you really using that as some sort of an example to prove your point? I even said PSU-Indiana didn't belong on the list. The point there was that including a "rivalry" (LOL) games from a horrible P5 conference doesn't belong on a top 20 game for the entire CFB season. PSU-Indiana doesn't either, but it's going to be more nationally relevant. I think you need to re-examine your definition of "pimping out". That or just go back and read what I actually said about that game.

 

[ralphiewvu]

1. Not sure how you can say they were a "disaster". They weren't putting up Justin Fields-type numbers, but they were hardly "disasters". That's just ignorant. However, you're just further proving my point. He didn't get exceptional results from already established, veteran QBs, so why would anyone think he's suddenly going to get better results from inexperienced QBs? Also, again, two games against a team from two and four years ago mean nothing for this year.

2. They have had solid enough defenses under Harbaugh, but he's never had the coaching turnover like he had last year and again this year. That's the biggest concern I would think they should have.

3. 2016 michigan was undoubtedly the best team Harbaugh has had at michigan and it's not even close. Ask any michigan fan and they'll tell you the same. That was a really, really good team. They haven't been that good since.

Are you really using that as some sort of an example to prove your point? I even said PSU-Indiana didn't belong on the list. The point there was that including a "rivalry" (LOL) games from a horrible P5 conference doesn't belong on a top 20 game for the entire CFB season. PSU-Indiana doesn't either, but it's going to be more nationally relevant. I think you need to re-examine your definition of "pimping out". That or just go back and read what I actually said about that game.

1) You are getting panties twisted on words. They weren’t good, is that better? Expecting Harbaugh to do worse with what amounts to the same talent of QB is pure stupidity. He got results vs those teams, suddenly expecting him not too is foolish.

2) I think they’ll be fine, especially with the talent they have.

3) 2016 team was no doubt his best. But they still chocked At the end there.

You tried to say Indiana-PSU belong on that list over Cal-USC. Yes I’m using that as one of many bias bullshit arguments you try and put up all because it benefits OSU. An no, PSU/Indiana doesn’t belong on that list nor will it be relevant nationally. Indiana has beaten PSU once since PSU started B1G play in 1993 playing nearly every year until now. Even in the horrid early 2000 years, PSU beat Indiana. PSU will kill them this year.

 

[Across The Field]

1) You are getting panties twisted on words. They weren’t good, is that better? Expecting Harbaugh to do worse with what amounts to the same talent of QB is pure stupidity. He got results vs those teams, suddenly expecting him not too is foolish.

2) I think they’ll be fine, especially with the talent they have.

3) 2016 team was no doubt his best. But they still chocked At the end there.

You tried to say Indiana-PSU belong on that list over Cal-USC. Yes I’m using that as one of many bias bullshit arguments you try and put up all because it benefits OSU. An no, PSU/Indiana doesn’t belong on that list nor will it be relevant nationally. Indiana has beaten PSU once since PSU started B1G play in 1993 playing nearly every year until now. Even in the horrid early 2000 years, PSU beat Indiana. PSU will kill them this year.

1. Not at all. How are you saying QBs who have never played any relevant game action are the "same" as QBs who were multi-season starters? Do you actually believe that?

2. Maybe, maybe not. They weren't last year, as both Wisconsin and PSU had no trouble at all scoring on them.

3. Sure they did, but they proved to be better than both Wisconsin (barely, at home) and PSU that year.

I said that and also said they PSU-IU didn't belong on the list. I don't think that's a top 20 game at all this year, but it makes as much sense as Cal-USC from a relevancy perspective. No reason to think PSU will kill them this year when they only beat them by 7 in Happy Valley last year, especially since IU is returning more starters than any other school in the B1G this year and face PSU at home now.

 

[ralphiewvu]

1. Not at all. How are you saying QBs who have never played any relevant game action are the "same" as QBs who were multi-season starters? Do you actually believe that?

2. Maybe, maybe not. They weren't last year, as both Wisconsin and PSU had no trouble at all scoring on them.

3. Sure they did, but they proved to be better than both Wisconsin (barely, at home) and PSU that year.

I said that and also said they PSU-IU didn't belong on the list. I don't think that's a top 20 game at all this year, but it makes as much sense as Cal-USC from a relevancy perspective. No reason to think PSU will kill them this year when they only beat them by 7 in Happy Valley last year, especially since IU is returning more starters than any other school in the B1G this year and face PSU at home now.

1) Absolutely, you are confusing meaningful lower competition action in half he cases with P5 action. Obviously Patterson and Ruddock are from the P5 level but a bad QB is a bad QB. He won games with bad QBs that had little P5 competition experience half the time. Expecting him to suddenly lose is beyond foolish.

2) Sure, Wisconsin rolled Michigan. They did only score 7 in second half but the game was well in hand.

PSU was beyond lucky to win that game. Michigan was absolutely awful in the first half. They had a turnover on downs inside PSU territory, an interception returned in their territory and a missed field goal. The second half PSU got a long touchdown but couldn’t move the ball at any point before or after. Michigan had a turnover On downs inside the 5 in the closing minutes and still only lost by 7. You ethier didn’t watch the game or your Michigan hate has caused you blindness.

3) Not at the end they didn’t. They choked.

You stated IU/PSU should be on before USC/Cal which is ludicrous. Cal/USC right now looks like the better matchup. You have harped all Thread how this is Franklins best team. Yet you don’t think he’ll crush an Indiana team?

 

[Across The Field]

1) Absolutely, you are confusing meaningful lower competition action in half he cases with P5 action. Obviously Patterson and Ruddock are from the P5 level but a bad QB is a bad QB. He won games with bad QBs that had little P5 competition experience half the time. Expecting him to suddenly lose is beyond foolish.

2) Sure, Wisconsin rolled Michigan. They did only score 7 in second half but the game was well in hand.

PSU was beyond lucky to win that game. Michigan was absolutely awful in the first half. They had a turnover on downs inside PSU territory, an interception returned in their territory and a missed field goal. The second half PSU got a long touchdown but couldn’t move the ball at any point before or after. Michigan had a turnover On downs inside the 5 in the closing minutes and still only lost by 7. You ethier didn’t watch the game or your Michigan hate has caused you blindness.

3) Not at the end they didn’t. They choked.

You stated IU/PSU should be on before USC/Cal which is ludicrous. Cal/USC right now looks like the better matchup. You have harped all Thread how this is Franklins best team. Yet you don’t think he’ll crush an Indiana team?

You're still very much missing the point. He had experienced veterans and couldn't get great play out of them. In your words, they were awful, in fact. So, why is he even going to be able to get that much out of guys that have hardly played at all? If Harbaugh has experienced QBs not play well, then wouldn't it make sense that inexperienced guys would be even worse?

Wisconsin did whatever they wanted. PSU ran off 21 points without a problem to start the game, and then they played like shit and let michigan get back into it.

Cal-USC is a worthless game that hardly anyone will watch. I said it before and it's still valid, the two games with Cal were added just to make sure the Pac-12 had equal representation and so it wouldn't look like they were being biased. Neither of those teams are very good, so no, there's no reason to think it's going to be an important game. And no, I don't think it's a guarantee that Franklin crushes Indiana. IU returns a ton from an 8-win team that played a close game against PSU last year in Happy Valley. It's funny that michigan is seemingly a lock to beat PSU yet Indiana is going to get crushed, even though they both played PSU to a 7-point game last year in HV. michigan was a 9-4 team last year an IU was 8-5, so it's not like michigan is so much better than IU.

 

[ericd7633]

You're still very much missing the point. He had experienced veterans and couldn't get great play out of them. In your words, they were awful, in fact. So, why is he even going to be able to get that much out of guys that have hardly played at all? If Harbaugh has experienced QBs not play well, then wouldn't it make sense that inexperienced guys would be even worse?

Wisconsin did whatever they wanted. PSU ran off 21 points without a problem to start the game, and then they played like shit and let michigan get back into it.

Cal-USC is a worthless game that hardly anyone will watch. I said it before and it's still valid, the two games with Cal were added just to make sure the Pac-12 had equal representation and so it wouldn't look like they were being biased. Neither of those teams are very good, so no, there's no reason to think it's going to be an important game. And no, I don't think it's a guarantee that Franklin crushes Indiana. IU returns a ton from an 8-win team that played a close game against PSU last year in Happy Valley. It's funny that michigan is seemingly a lock to beat PSU yet Indiana is going to get crushed, even though they both played PSU to a 7-point game last year in HV. michigan was a 9-4 team last year an IU was 8-5, so it's not like michigan is so much better than IU.

Michigan was significantly better than IU last year.

 

[Across The Field]

Michigan was significantly better than IU last year.

Nope

 

[ericd7633]

Nope

Yes they were. Much better.

 

[Duckboy33]

Yes they were. Much better.

Michigan was much better than Indiana

 

[Across The Field]

Yes they were. Much better.

Nah, not much.

 

[ericd7633]

Nah, not much.

I see you're providing no substance to your argument, so even you know you're wrong.

 

[ralphiewvu]

You're still very much missing the point. He had experienced veterans and couldn't get great play out of them. In your words, they were awful, in fact. So, why is he even going to be able to get that much out of guys that have hardly played at all? If Harbaugh has experienced QBs not play well, then wouldn't it make sense that inexperienced guys would be even worse?

Wisconsin did whatever they wanted. PSU ran off 21 points without a problem to start the game, and then they played like shit and let michigan get back into it.

Cal-USC is a worthless game that hardly anyone will watch. I said it before and it's still valid, the two games with Cal were added just to make sure the Pac-12 had equal representation and so it wouldn't look like they were being biased. Neither of those teams are very good, so no, there's no reason to think it's going to be an important game. And no, I don't think it's a guarantee that Franklin crushes Indiana. IU returns a ton from an 8-win team that played a close game against PSU last year in Happy Valley. It's funny that michigan is seemingly a lock to beat PSU yet Indiana is going to get crushed, even though they both played PSU to a 7-point game last year in HV. michigan was a 9-4 team last year an IU was 8-5, so it's not like michigan is so much better than IU.

I’m not missing the point. A bad QB is a bad QB. Anyway, I believe UM beats booth Wisconsin and PSU next year. I’ll happily take an avy beat on it.

PSU was beyond lucky to beat Michigan. UM had two turnover on downs in PSU territory and a missed field goal and still only lost by 7.

No, what’s funny is you trying to defend a shitty B1Ggame and acting like your not. PSU is a lock to beat UM but you think they’ll struggle against Indiana? GMFB

How was your 4th? Did your town have fireworks?

 

[Across The Field]

I’m not missing the point. A bad QB is a bad QB. Anyway, I believe UM beats booth Wisconsin and PSU next year. I’ll happily take an avy beat on it.

PSU was beyond lucky to beat Michigan. UM had two turnover on downs in PSU territory and a missed field goal and still only lost by 7.

No, what’s funny is you trying to defend a shitty B1Ggame and acting like your not. PSU is a lock to beat UM but you think they’ll struggle against Indiana? GMFB

How was your 4th? Did your town have fireworks?

Logic would tell you that if you can only get decent results from an experienced QB, then you're likely going to get even less from an inexperienced QB. That's my point, and it's valid. I'll take that avy bet. One week?

Not beyond lucky. For starters, that missed FG was from 58 yards out. That's not unlucky, it's common. Secondly, one of those series where michigan had turnover on downs ended at the PSU 36. Not a lock they were scoring points obviously. That also doesn't make PSU lucky, it makes them good. Holding a team to fewer than 10 yards on 4 plays is the sign of a strong defense, and that's what they are.

If PSU-IU is a shitty game, then so is Cal-USC or Cal-ASU. I've never said PSU is a lock to beat michigan at all, I've said I think it's going to happen. I also think they're going to beat Indiana, but neither is a lock. Again, this was never about "pimping" the PSU-IU game. It was about showing that there are several games that are likely going to be more nationally relevant that deserve to be on this list. That's been my point.

4th was just alright. It was just my wife and I. My neighbor came over for a little bit to have a few beers and pick up some bags of topsoil from me, but that was about it. We did have a drunken water gun fight in the backyard with the dog that was entertaining, at least. There were fireworks but not from the city unfortunately. We could see some of them through the trees in the neighborhood. How about you?

 

[Across The Field]

I see you're providing no substance to your argument, so even you know you're wrong.

Neither are you, yet here you are firing off accusations at me. Strange.