Judge for Yourselves, Part II: Secondary

[tpaulus_2]

Is our secondary as bad as it gets credit for here on the 'Hoop?

Maybe not:

Lions Gab: Secondary first to be criticized, but is it justified? | Detroit Free Press | freep.com

 

[tpaulus_2]

It's our corners who sucked...

Some highlights from the article:

What are people using to determine that the Lions’ secondary is suspect? I’ve seen articles touting the 23rd-ranked pass defense, but that number is solely based on yards allowed. Last I checked, opponents didn’t get points for eclipsing yardage totals. The Lions finished 19th in opponent passer rating and yards per attempt, but that doesn’t provide much context. They finished 13th in the league for fewest passing touchdowns and 17th in interceptions, neither of which is great, but definitely not terrible.

ProFootballFocus.com rated the Lions the 10th-best pass coverage team in the NFL last season.

DeAndre Levy graded out as the third-best coverage outside linebacker, and Stephen Tulloch also graded as third best for inside linebackers.

Rashean Mathis graded out as the 23rd-best cornerback in the league, followed by Darius Slay at 68th, Bill Bentley at 80th and Chris Houston at 97th

.

The safeties fared better with Glover Quin and Louis Delmas 10th and 11th, respectively.

So, basically, the corners sucked, while the rest of the back 7 was actually very good. Mathis returns as our best CB from last season, and hopefully Slay is really poised to make the jump that everyone is buzzing about...

 

[tpaulus_2]

Overall we had a middle-of-the-pack secondary that routinely gets cast as one of the worst few in the league around here. I'm not saying that they're great by any measure, but these numbers give hard proof that they weren't nearly as bad as I've seen referenced by some lately. I'm curious where these "worst ranked" secondary posts are getting their info from?

 

[Old Lion]

Exactly what I have been saying. Our CBs were not good. Our Safeties and LBs actually were good. We looked better against the pass because we often went 3 safeties which was our strength for lack of a better term. Sacks and turnovers suffered because of that scheme, but we got by with it.

Offense was terrible down the stretch, plain and simple. Most here just do not get that.

Also, anyone discounting the fact that the new staff will make these guys better is a hypocrit. This staff is many of the guys from the Ravens everyone was wishing for 2 years ago when they won the SB.

 

[broncosmitty]

Our secondary is shitty. Just how shitty, now that's debateable.

 

[themuzzer]

Our secondary is shitty. Just how shitty, now that's debateable.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Overall we had a middle-of-the-pack secondary that routinely gets cast as one of the worst few in the league around here.

We should get a good look at what our secondary really is this year. 2013 -- the only top QB's they faced were Rodgers (once), Rothlesberger (once) and Romo (once). They threw 8 touchdowns with 0 interceptions. They face Rodgers (twice), Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Matt Ryan with possibly a healthy receiving corp, etc.

I just can't get on board with the secondary being middle of the pack, when they faced QB's like Mike Glennon, Matt Flynn, Nick Foles in an absolute blizzard, Flacco and the 31st ranked Ravens offense, Eli Manning and the 30th ranked Giants offense (without Victor Cruz), as well as Matt Cassel, Christian Ponder and Brandon Weeden.

Detroit had an absolute cupcake schedule last season, which makes the fact they finished 7-9 hurt that much more.

Seeing as how Mayhew has been drafting and bringing in CB's to fit the Lions Wide 9 scheme, where they play zone the overwhelming majority of the time. I'm not sure what to expect in this new defensive scheme, where CB's are going to be asked to play man coverage and many times bump and run coverage -- something these guys haven't had to do much in college (unless you played at 'Bama or Michigan State) and pretty much not at all in the NFL.

It could be a blessing or it could be an absolute disaster having our CB's in man coverage. I think Slay will be alright, but it makes me nervous with the rest on the roster.

 

[tpaulus_2]

Our secondary is shitty. Just how shitty, now that's debateable.

Imo the debatable part is perception vs. reality. If our secondary truly is shitty, then about 20 or so of the 32 teams in the NFL also have shitty secondaries. From my perspective it looks like we rank them as either great, like Seattle, or crap, there's no such thing as a decent secondary, which is right where we actually fell last season.

 

[tpaulus_2]

We should get a good look at what our secondary really is this year. 2013 -- the only top QB's they faced were Rodgers (once), Rothlesberger (once) and Romo (once). They threw 8 touchdowns with 0 interceptions. They face Rodgers (twice), Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Matt Ryan with possibly a healthy receiving corp, etc.

I just can't get on board with the secondary being middle of the pack, when they faced QB's like Mike Glennon, Matt Flynn, Nick Foles in an absolute blizzard, Flacco and the 31st ranked Ravens offense, Eli Manning and the 30th ranked Giants offense (without Victor Cruz), as well as Matt Cassel, Christian Ponder and Brandon Weeden.

Detroit had an absolute cupcake schedule last season, which makes the fact they finished 7-9 hurt that much more.

Seeing as how Mayhew has been drafting and bringing in CB's to fit the Lions Wide 9 scheme, where they play zone the overwhelming majority of the time. I'm not sure what to expect in this new defensive scheme, where CB's are going to be asked to play man coverage and many times bump and run coverage -- something these guys haven't had to do much in college (unless you played at 'Bama or Michigan State) and pretty much not at all in the NFL.

It could be a blessing or it could be an absolute disaster having our CB's in man coverage. I think Slay will be alright, but it makes me nervous with the rest on the roster.

We play who the league gives us. Saying that we're not as good as the numbers we posted because we played "inferior" QBs is weak. No team plays Peyton Manning, Drew Brees and Tom Brady every single week. Pretty much seems that your mind is made up and you're not going to let any evidence get in the way of that.

Also, for what it's worth, you left out that we faced Chicago and their elite passing offense twice, but then again that doesn't mesh with your theory that we posted inflated numbers by playing FBS teams...

 

[Howie115]

QB pressure, or lack of it, was as much to blame as the secondary for the below-average pass defense numbers.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

We play who the league gives us. Saying that we're not as good as the numbers we posted because we played "inferior" QBs is weak. No team plays Peyton Manning, Drew Brees and Tom Brady every single week. Pretty much seems that your mind is made up and you're not going to let any evidence get in the way of that.

Also, for what it's worth, you left out that we faced Chicago and their elite passing offense twice, but then again that doesn't mesh with your theory that we posted inflated numbers by playing FBS teams...

I understand we can only play who the league gives us. It doesn't change the fact the Lions played a who's who of the worst QB's in the NFL last season, while missing out on the overwhelming majority of elite QB's. Personally -- the only "elite" QB we faced was Aaron Rodgers, but Romo and Rothlesberger are both top 10ish QB's.

The reason I didn't include Chicago is because Jay Cutler isn't an elite QB. He has two very good WR's, but the player responsible for the Bears finishing 5th in the NFL in passing is Josh McCown, as he threw for over 1800 yards in 5 starts and a couple games where he had to take over for Cutler, with 13 touchdowns and 1 interceptions. 3 of the 5 starts, McCown threw for 350+ yards. Cutler threw for 300 yards twice all season (once against Detroit).

If I were to say Cutler was an elite QB, I'd have to say the same about Stafford. Neither are remotely close to being elite QB's right now though.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

I know this isn't about the secondary, but I was looking for stats on QB pressures for defenses, as I honestly think Detroit's DL ranks pretty high in this category and I came across a website where they were having a conversation on the average time QB's have to throw the football. Stafford had the least amount of time to get rid of the ball on average in the NFL. I never would have guessed that? I don't know how accurate the stats are, but it was a Falcons website where they were having the discussion.

These are some very interesting stats.

QB time to throw:

1. Matthew Stafford 2.23
2. Ryan Tannehill 2.28
3. Peyton Manning 2.29
4. Andy Dalton 2.31
5. Philip Rivers 2.32

 

[tpaulus_2]

Is that how much time he had to throw it (i.e. protection) or is it how quickly he got rid of the ball?

Version A is a commentary on poor o-line play, version B is more geared toward a quick release...

 

[Microwahevo]

Is that how much time he had to throw it (i.e. protection) or is it how quickly he got rid of the ball?

Version A is a commentary on poor o-line play, version B is more geared toward a quick release...

I found the article he may be referring to. It's from PFF. Here's a part where they explain their criteria.

We introduced time to throw data for the 2011 season, and it opened up an entirely new way of looking at the game. Initial instincts tell us that time to throw is a function of an offensive line’s ability to protect the quarterback, but we’ve found that it’s better used as an indicator of a quarterback’s style and a team’s offensive scheme.

 

[tpaulus_2]

Nice info.

Being grouped with Manning and Rivers is encouraging...

 

[themuzzer]

Now that's need to know shit....Eyes see the same stuff and in ones head he knows if the QB is being pressured or if he's just getting rid of the ball fast, but that stat is really good for the ones that don't watch the game. I find it interesting to say the least.

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

Some of you are excellent researchers so here is what I would like to know......A. How many top quartile (top 8) passing offenses did we face last year and B. How did we stack up against them in terms of results?

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

Is that how much time he had to throw it (i.e. protection) or is it how quickly he got rid of the ball?

Version A is a commentary on poor o-line play, version B is more geared toward a quick release...

From the conversation they are having on the site I found -- they are saying it is the time the QB had until he had to get rid of the ball on average.

As I said though -- I just stumbled across that and have no clue on the validity of the numbers posted. I was trying to find the team stats for QB pressures. I thought our DL had quite a few last year, but i can't find a team stat for that for the NFL.

 

[broncosmitty]

Imo the debatable part is perception vs. reality. If our secondary truly is shitty, then about 20 or so of the 32 teams in the NFL also have shitty secondaries. From my perspective it looks like we rank them as either great, like Seattle, or crap, there's no such thing as a decent secondary, which is right where we actually fell last season.

Nope. Actually they're shitty. Might help that Houston won't be playing because his money says he should be. But they still won't be decent. Decent secondaries pick off passes. (The leaders in that category, from our shitty secondary, can't pick off passes for the Lions, since they aren't Lions anymore. But hey, we got a 30something run stopping safety now. Cool.) Decent secondaries hold coverage for two or three seconds every now and then. Decent secondaries play the ball and knock down passes from time to time. We're not decent in the secondary. No matter how athletic Chris Greenwood is.

 

[themuzzer]

Nope. Actually they're shitty. Might help that Houston won't be playing because his money says he should be. But they still won't be decent. Decent secondaries pick off passes. (The leaders in that category, from our shitty secondary, can't pick off passes for the Lions, since they aren't Lions anymore. But hey, we got a 30something run stopping safety now. Cool.) Decent secondaries hold coverage for two or three seconds every now and then. Decent secondaries play the ball and knock down passes from time to time. We're not decent in the secondary. No matter how athletic Chris Greenwood is.

The secondary will show again by the time week 3 rolls around, just like the Tigers Bull Pen finally showed up.....Rational fans know what they have regardless of silly stats they have to blindly dig and find.

The secondary is horrible and I don't care what stat anyone tries to deflect from the truth.....We have our good parts of the team, but lets not pretend it's the secondary.