Judge for Yourselves, Part II: Secondary

[gandydancer]

Yes, we are. Great cover corners give the D-coordinator a lot more flexibility, and you can certainly play safe and rush only four guys more often when you have one. But there are only a handful in the NFL. Lacking one, you absolutely have to do some blitzing and stunting.

Schwartz's never-ever-ever blitz scheme. Gunther was just a figure-head running Jimmy's defense when he was the DC in KC he blitzed a ton...

Howie's and you go hand and hand. Gunther blitzed a lot in KC yes. His scheme worked well with personel he had. IMO the lack of pressure is part Schwartz and part players. I love Austins scheme better. Does not mean it will have success with players here.

 

[gandydancer]

Glover Quin? He had 3 picks last year.

Maybe James Ihedigbo- he also had three picks last year.

Slay is also a good bet to get at least 3 in the new system.


Idk why Delmas is being put on such a pedestal here? His production never lived up to his talent. We got a good run out of him, but his best years are in the rear-view with his knees the way they are.

Couple questions Tpaul...
Do you feel the secondary needs no upgrade? They are middle of pack I give you that. I want top tier. Top ten defense every year no stand pat with middle of the road shit.

ABove you mentioned 3 puzzle pieces. Are you okay with what the option is for the 4th? I am not okay Iheddigbo. Stop gap when a top S was there at ten. Fuck the reach theory,soon that will go by wayside with set contracts on rookies. Reaches was more about paying guys not always talent...I am okay with Ebron( don't love it). I hated Dennard and feel he would have been better option for future. The offense scored last year. Need to stop people from scoring.

 

[gvsulaker82]

The secondary will not be good next year. The lions will be a playoff team of stafford is successful.

 

[gandydancer]

The secondary will not be good next year. The lions will be a playoff team of stafford is successful.

SO anyone have plans on next years draft.

 

[gvsulaker82]

We play who the league gives us. Saying that we're not as good as the numbers we posted because we played "inferior" QBs is weak. No team plays Peyton Manning, Drew Brees and Tom Brady every single week. Pretty much seems that your mind is made up and you're not going to let any evidence get in the way of that.

Also, for what it's worth, you left out that we faced Chicago and their elite passing offense twice, but then again that doesn't mesh with your theory that we posted inflated numbers by playing FBS teams...

Thats understandable that we have to play whos on the schedule, but mikes analysis of how good the secondary is is spot on. When they played against better quarterbacks or offenses they performed poorly. The lions secondary is not good at all.

 

[gvsulaker82]

Yup, and now I feel good knowing someone else gets it.

Theres quite a few of us that get it. I get how people can have unbridled optimism at this point every season as well though. They cant or wont believe that an area of their team is awful, like the tigers pen. You are correct, detroits secondary is pretty similar to the tigs pen, how awful it is, how there are people trying to convince themselves its not tha bad...the good thing is for lions fans is that the secondary will not lose the same percentage of games that the pen will. If stafford succeeds the lions will make the playoffs even with that awful secondary. They arent super bowl contenders by any stretch of imagination, but if stafford does well hey will have a top five offense with a bottom ten defense.

 

[gvsulaker82]

SO anyone have plans on next years draft.

I had plans for this years draft, it definitely did not involve ebron, lol. I think the lions will be a 9-7 team and make the playoffs, why would I be planning next years draft? Secondary sucks, no need to sugar coat it.

 

[tpaulus_2]

No offense, but the 3 interceptions for Ihedbigo in 2013 were his 1st 3 in the NFL and he has been in the league since 2007, I believe.

It also wasn't his first time being a starter. He started the majority of the season for NE, but was benched due to poor play (the one NE fan who post on this board every so often is the one who told us about that). That same NE fan also pointed out that Ihedbigo was terrible in pass coverage, finishing the season with 1 pass defensed. I just looked up Ihedbigo's stats and prior to 2013, he had 2 total passes defensed with 0 interceptions and 1 FF.

So while he may fill in admirably for a year -- those expecting to see a guy put up 100+ tackles with 3 interceptions and double digit pass defenses are more than likely asking WAY too much out of the guy.

One thing I will say about Ihedbigo -- he is built like an absolute tank. He looks like a body builder in some of the pics they had posted of him without a shirt on.

"WAY" too much, even though that's exactly what he did last year in the same defensive scheme?

I'm not sure I quite follow the logic you're using...

 

[tpaulus_2]

Couple questions Tpaul...
Do you feel the secondary needs no upgrade? They are middle of pack I give you that. I want top tier. Top ten defense every year no stand pat with middle of the road shit.

ABove you mentioned 3 puzzle pieces. Are you okay with what the option is for the 4th? I am not okay Iheddigbo. Stop gap when a top S was there at ten. Fuck the reach theory,soon that will go by wayside with set contracts on rookies. Reaches was more about paying guys not always talent...I am okay with Ebron( don't love it). I hated Dennard and feel he would have been better option for future. The offense scored last year. Need to stop people from scoring.

Totally agree that they need to be upgraded, but rarely does a unit not need to be upgraded. I think this year will be about sorting out which of our young CBs stick around, and which don't. We'll almost certainly need to add to the position next offseason, the question now, though, is just how much?

As for Clinton-Dix at #10, I just don't see the talent to merit that selection. That's just me though, maybe he does become a top-tier safety?


Also, let's not forget that we were having this same debate last offseason about the o-line and they came on like gang-busters next season. I'm not saying the CBs will certainly do the same, but I heard the same argument last year about our offensive linemen- young, inexperienced, back-ups, etc... Nobody is saying that now. If anyone can find that thread there's a few posters who specifically said they'd eat crow if the o-line turned out better than they thought/predicted it would. Those same posters are the ones leading the charge against the secondary, so here's to hoping that they're very wrong again this year...

 

[tpaulus_2]

For what it's worth I haven't argued that they're less than a middle-of-the-pack unit, nor have I suggested they don't need an upgrade. I'm just arguing against this mentality that they suck balls and are one of the worst secondaries in the league.


Unfortunately in the forum of public opinion perception trumps reality.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

"WAY" too much, even though that's exactly what he did last year in the same defensive scheme?

I'm not sure I quite follow the logic you're using...

My logic is -- he had a solid season in 2013. It is the first time in his career he had more than 1 pass defensed in a year. It is the 1st time he had an interception, as he had none coming into 2013 in 6 years in the league.

He is also going to be surrounded by completely different players than he played with in Baltimore. It takes time to gel as a unit and outside of Ihedbigo -- the rest of the defense is learning an entire new scheme and responsibilities.

If teams expected Ihedbigo to put up numbers like he did in 2013 -- teams would have been lining up to pay him pennies on the dollar what other teams shelled out for the safety position.

Expecting Ihedigo to put up 100+ with 3 interceptions and double digits passes defensed is like expecting Levy to have 6 interceptions again in 2014, because he did it last year.

 

[Rollingthndr]

I know a lot of people here don't like the secondary but they aren't terrible by any means. Slay should take a big step forward and Mathis was extremely solid. I know he is older but that doesn't mean his play will drop off a cliff. I'm not a big Bentley fan but there is a chance he could step up in his 4th season.

We basically have no depth and need to get lucky and avoid injuries. Cause if Jonte Green or Greenwood or Lawson see a bunch of playing time. We are fuuuuuuuuuuuuuucked.

 

[tpaulus_2]

My logic is -- he had a solid season in 2013. It is the first time in his career he had more than 1 pass defensed in a year. It is the 1st time he had an interception, as he had none coming into 2013 in 6 years in the league.

He is also going to be surrounded by completely different players than he played with in Baltimore. It takes time to gel as a unit and outside of Ihedbigo -- the rest of the defense is learning an entire new scheme and responsibilities.

If teams expected Ihedbigo to put up numbers like he did in 2013 -- teams would have been lining up to pay him pennies on the dollar what other teams shelled out for the safety position.

Expecting Ihedigo to put up 100+ with 3 interceptions and double digits passes defensed is like expecting Levy to have 6 interceptions again in 2014, because he did it last year.

The tackles should be right about there, imo. Same scheme, same relative talent level around him. The strong safety gets a lot of clean-up work, and puts up a lot of tackles. The INTs should be close, too. 3 is not a lot. Pretty much all four starting DBs should have at least two INTs if they start most of the games in a season. Just tipped balls and bad passes will give you a couple.

The passes defensed is where I'd expect him to fall off the most. 11 is a really high number for a safety, especially for one known to be a run stopper first and foremost. I'd be surprised if he gets more than 5 or 6 this year, to be honest.

But overall I think we should expect a lot more towards what he did last year than what he's done on his career. Clearly this defense is the right fit for him, and he grew into the role with the Ravens, so he's got a good understanding of the defense and earned his spot, rather than being handed one based on talent and potential.

He's still a stop-gap guy, make no mistake about it, but there's no reason to think he shouldn't be a quality starter based on his production last year...

 

[tpaulus_2]

I know a lot of people here don't like the secondary but they aren't terrible by any means. Slay should take a big step forward and Mathis was extremely solid. I know he is older but that doesn't mean his play will drop off a cliff. I'm not a big Bentley fan but there is a chance he could step up in his 4th season.

We basically have no depth and need to get lucky and avoid injuries. Cause if Jonte Green or Greenwood or Lawson see a bunch of playing time. We are fuuuuuuuuuuuuuucked.

I agree about Mathis- we should be able to expect another solid, if unspectacular, season from him. He's a stop-gap much like 'Digs, but he's decent at a tough position.

As for Bentley, maybe he steps up in his 4th season, but I'm really hoping he steps up this year in his 3rd season... we need all the help we can get at CB lol: he was drafted in 2012).

I'd wait till after camp to pass judgement on Green and Greenwood. Greenwood hasn't been healthy this offseason, but let's not forget that he actually looked like he belonged on an NFL field when he finally saw some playing time last season. He may be destined for the practice squad again, though, given his injury-shortened off-season. They may decide to gain a roster spot by parking him there, at least to start the season, while he heals up and learns the new defense better. I wouldn't bank on either guy being a contributor this year, but I wouldn't write them off until training camp is wrapping up, either. Both guys are much better suited to our new defense than they were to the old one...

 

[broncosmitty]

For what it's worth I haven't argued that they're less than a middle-of-the-pack unit, nor have I suggested they don't need an upgrade. I'm just arguing against this mentality that they suck balls and are one of the worst secondaries in the league.


Unfortunately in the forum of public opinion perception trumps reality.

But they really do suck balls TPaul.(Rasheen Mathis is our #1 corner, I mean C'mon...) Our linebackers are pretty darn good and might improve on that this year though.

 

[themuzzer]

PORK RINDS!!!!!!!

 

[tpaulus_2]

But they really do suck balls TPaul.(Rasheen Mathis is our #1 corner, I mean C'mon...) Our linebackers are pretty darn good and might improve on that this year though.

The safeties get no credit? And Mathis was of starting quality last season, so basically we have a big hole at one starting CB spot and no proven depth. Not ideal, but the chicken-little stuff just seems overboard after a while. They're below average, but not horrible. Bottom third of the league, could have easily been worse. In fact many teams were last season. Idk.

 

[broncosmitty]

You know I hate the Ihijidigigbo signing.(Scabs can work when surrounded by decent players. Our secondary doesn't have that luxury.) So yeah, he gets no credit whatsofreaking ever. I have no problem with GQ. (Would haveliked to see a cover corner added so he could fill the nickel spot.)None. But that's one guy out of usually five that seems like an option any good team would throw out there. (Bentley and Greenwood may or may not be cut. And may or may not be picked up by someone else.). Slay may be an NFL starting caliber corner, someday. He wasn't last year. (Which was fine.). The only starting caliber DB that Mayhew has drafted, now plays for Miami. And we have a guy who will be 34, that JVille didn't want, as our top cover man. Season to season the Luons may not be awful, but on the whole, it's a weak point for the franchise IMO. And our franchise does deserve ridicule.

 

[themuzzer]

And our franchise does deserve ridicule.

It sure does, and some of us have been giving it for years.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

The only starting caliber DB that Mayhew has drafted, now plays for Miami. And we have a guy who will be 34, that JVille didn't want, as our top cover man. Season to season the Luons may not be awful, but on the whole, it's a weak point for the franchise IMO. And our franchise does deserve ridicule.

Sorry TP but I have to agree with Smitty. Our top CB coming back will be 34. We signed a safety who will be 31 and has started one year in the NFL where he wasn't benched for poor play since getting into the league.

We can try and spin it anyway we'd like, but the the Lions secondary is a disaster. The only way this changes is if Darius Slay takes an enormous jump from year 1 to year 2. If we see the same Slay as in 2013 -- we are going to be up shit's creek. We lack depth and a quality #1 or #2. Teams can't have studs at every position -- so it is understandable. In a pass happy NFL though, having a weak secondary is going to hurt you more than being weak elsewhere.