Judge for Yourselves, Part II: Secondary

[Rollingthndr]

I agree about Mathis- we should be able to expect another solid, if unspectacular, season from him. He's a stop-gap much like 'Digs, but he's decent at a tough position.

As for Bentley, maybe he steps up in his 4th season, but I'm really hoping he steps up this year in his 3rd season... we need all the help we can get at CB lol: he was drafted in 2012).

I'd wait till after camp to pass judgement on Green and Greenwood. Greenwood hasn't been healthy this offseason, but let's not forget that he actually looked like he belonged on an NFL field when he finally saw some playing time last season. He may be destined for the practice squad again, though, given his injury-shortened off-season. They may decide to gain a roster spot by parking him there, at least to start the season, while he heals up and learns the new defense better. I wouldn't bank on either guy being a contributor this year, but I wouldn't write them off until training camp is wrapping up, either. Both guys are much better suited to our new defense than they were to the old one...

Damn I thought they have been around longer than that. Green needs to be moved to safety. His hips are to tight to hang with NFL receivers. Might be to late in the game for him to learn a whole new position though. Lawson looks like a Bentley clone to me, maybe a little more physical. Both guys are slot defenders through and through. Actually felt solid about the corners this year with Houston,Slay and Mathis. Still feels frightening with what is behind them now.

 

[tpaulus_2]

Sorry TP but I have to agree with Smitty. Our top CB coming back will be 34. We signed a safety who will be 31 and has started one year in the NFL where he wasn't benched for poor play since getting into the league.

We can try and spin it anyway we'd like, but the the Lions secondary is a disaster. The only way this changes is if Darius Slay takes an enormous jump from year 1 to year 2. If we see the same Slay as in 2013 -- we are going to be up shit's creek. We lack depth and a quality #1 or #2. Teams can't have studs at every position -- so it is understandable. In a pass happy NFL though, having a weak secondary is going to hurt you more than being weak elsewhere.

I get it, you're minds made up and nothing is going to change that. Just remember the two of us had the same debate on the o-line last offseason and you weren't willing to give an inch there either. I'm more than willing to say that our secondary isn't good- they're not. However, I'm not willing to concede that they suck. You guys are comparing them to your ideal secondary, not the rest of the league. Among the real 32 NFL teams that play, our secondary is somewhere around 20-25th best, imo. That's not ideal at all and I'd love to see it get rapidly better, but this "they suck" and "worst in the league" stuff is just bs, plain and simple.

They're bad, but not horrible. Moving on...

 

[Old Lion]

Sorry TP but I have to agree with Smitty. Our top CB coming back will be 34. We signed a safety who will be 31 and has started one year in the NFL where he wasn't benched for poor play since getting into the league.

We can try and spin it anyway we'd like, but the the Lions secondary is a disaster. The only way this changes is if Darius Slay takes an enormous jump from year 1 to year 2. If we see the same Slay as in 2013 -- we are going to be up shit's creek. We lack depth and a quality #1 or #2. Teams can't have studs at every position -- so it is understandable. In a pass happy NFL though, having a weak secondary is going to hurt you more than being weak elsewhere.

I see so the new coaching will not change anything and the new scheme will not change anything. Everyone and everything will stay exactly the same or get worse. And then you say you are just realists.



Just like the O-line last year where you guys assumed that Waddle would not be better than Hilliard or Cherilous and that Reiff would be worse than Backus and Warford might struggle as a rookie in pass blocking.

You were all wrong. You have no foresight whatsoever.

There is no way to tell if the young guys will be good in the new scheme or not, but they will be better just from the coaching. Houston sucked and was getting worse so we can not do any worse than last year. Delmas was also shotty for the last couple seasons so we will be at least as good there if not better. Digs has much more chemistry with Quin than Delams did. Mathis is not getting better but hopefully does not slip too much.

We are not in any worse shape this year compared to last. The perception was Houston and Delmas were adequate if not above average, they were not. How are we any worse off? There is actually a chance we may be much better now that these young guys are getting first team reps and actually being taught the pro game.


I think we could pick up the entire Seahawk secondary and you guys would be complaining that somehow it would not work and Mayhew would screw it up (even though that makes no sense as a statement that is what you would be saying).

 

[Howie115]

If we see the same Slay as in 2013 -- we are going to be up shit's creek. We lack depth and a quality #1 or #2.

My biggest fear, in addition to Stafford continuing to throw picks. Depth is a BIG concern, and another reason I wanted a DB in Round 1.

 

[gandydancer]

Slay does not need to make a huge jump IMO. He sucked last year like most rookie CB's do. Another reason Mayhew sucks to me is he drafted a guy who played mostly man press in college to play in zone scheme in pros. Austin's scheme is more suited to Slay now. I just need to see progress over last year. Should not be hard to do.

I do not feel the Lions are contenders. I need to see developement in Slay and other young CB's for future. At least we will learn what is needed next year.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

I get it, you're minds made up and nothing is going to change that. Just remember the two of us had the same debate on the o-line last offseason and you weren't willing to give an inch there either. I'm more than willing to say that our secondary isn't good- they're not. However, I'm not willing to concede that they suck. You guys are comparing them to your ideal secondary, not the rest of the league. Among the real 32 NFL teams that play, our secondary is somewhere around 20-25th best, imo. That's not ideal at all and I'd love to see it get rapidly better, but this "they suck" and "worst in the league" stuff is just bs, plain and simple.

They're bad, but not horrible. Moving on...

What debate did I get in on with the OL? It isn't as if anyone here thought the Lions were going to set the world on fire with our OL play, as we replaced 3 guys. No one knew what was going to happen or how they'd play. So I apologize if we had a debate about the OL, but I can't remember it, so please refresh my memory.

As far as our CB's go -- Yes, you are right. I'm not willing to budge. They are not good at all. When your best CB was released by one of the worst teams in the league and he steps into a new defense and is better than all the guys who have been in the system for multiple years. It is a problem. When that CB is 33 years old -- it is definitely a problem.

The success or epic failure of our CB's falls on Darius Slay. If he made huge strides -- we could have an average group of CB's. If it is the Slay we saw early on last year -- Detroit is in a lot of trouble with some of the QB's they face in 2014.

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

Neville Longbottom is the answer to our prayers and the secondary is fixed.

 

[tpaulus_2]

My biggest fear, in addition to Stafford continuing to throw picks. Depth is a BIG concern, and another reason I wanted a DB in Round 1.

I'm with you there. This is a "make or break" year for no less than 3 of our CBs...

 

[Dr. Evil-er]

I am still banking on Greenwood as the surprise. If he is a player this is the time he shows it when one of our starters is a guy who keeps coming back on one year deals. Seize the opportunity or move on to running a cell phone kiosk at the mall.

 

[broncosmitty]

I get it, you're minds made up and nothing is going to change that. Just remember the two of us had the same debate on the o-line last offseason and you weren't willing to give an inch there either. I'm more than willing to say that our secondary isn't good- they're not. However, I'm not willing to concede that they suck. You guys are comparing them to your ideal secondary, not the rest of the league. Among the real 32 NFL teams that play, our secondary is somewhere around 20-25th best, imo. That's not ideal at all and I'd love to see it get rapidly better, but this "they suck" and "worst in the league" stuff is just bs, plain and simple.

They're bad, but not horrible. Moving on...

20-25th best is 12-7th worst though TPaul. And they're always down there. That sucks.

 

[gandydancer]

20-25th best is 12-7th worst though TPaul. And they're always down there. That sucks.

I read here on the hoop from another poster...

"You can brag you are dating the hottest waitress from Denny's. Although you are still dating the hottest waitress from Dennys"

you suck you suck just that simple.

 

[gandydancer]

I am still banking on Greenwood as the surprise. If he is a player this is the time he shows it when one of our starters is a guy who keeps coming back on one year deals. Seize the opportunity or move on to running a cell phone kiosk at the mall.

I am so tired of banking Meow. At least with the secondary! Ohh the day just may come in my life time of the secondary being a mainstay and not hopes of someone stepping up.

 

[tpaulus_2]

I am still banking on Greenwood as the surprise. If he is a player this is the time he shows it when one of our starters is a guy who keeps coming back on one year deals. Seize the opportunity or move on to running a cell phone kiosk at the mall.

That's where the big money is!

 

[tpaulus_2]

20-25th best is 12-7th worst though TPaul. And they're always down there. That sucks.

I agree, and I won't argue that they need a lot of improvement. But it could also be much worse- at least the cupboard isn't bare- we have some promising young guys and finally a system to suit their skill-sets. We'll need more help at CB in the offseason, but imo this year will be about proving who can play and who can't in the new scheme.

It's going to be rough, no bones about it, but I'm willing to bet we'll be better back there than last year's unit was...

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

we have some promising young guys and finally a system to suit their skill-sets.

This is what I don't understand. If all these corners we have are supposedly better suited for press man coverage, instead of zone -- WHY DID MAYHEW DRAFT THEM?!?! The Lions very rarely made their CB's play up on a WR or put them on an island in man coverage.

It seems as though -- if Mayhew was drafting these guys -- that he'd be targeting CB's who were very good in zone coverage, as that is what the Lions ran.

Also -- we really have no idea how some of these guys are going to do in man coverage, as only a select few in the NCAA play almost exclusively man coverage ('Bama and MSU are the only two I can think of), so it is going to be something else for the CB's to get acclimated to.

 

[TrustMeIamRight]

I'm willing to bet we'll be better back there than last year's unit was...

Only way Detroit is better than last year in the secondary is if the DL can get to the QB much more often. If they only finish with 33 sacks again -- the secondary is in serious trouble, as they face quite a few of the top QBs in 2014.

 

[Cleaves2000]

Seems like when they werent throwing all over our defense a team like philly was rushing for 1000 yards on us....when teams throw against us, it usually works....im always praying the other team runs our favorite offensive play...run straight up the centers ass...



We make players like matt flynn look good.

 

[tpaulus_2]

This is what I don't understand. If all these corners we have are supposedly better suited for press man coverage, instead of zone -- WHY DID MAYHEW DRAFT THEM?!?! The Lions very rarely made their CB's play up on a WR or put them on an island in man coverage.

It seems as though -- if Mayhew was drafting these guys -- that he'd be targeting CB's who were very good in zone coverage, as that is what the Lions ran.

Also -- we really have no idea how some of these guys are going to do in man coverage, as only a select few in the NCAA play almost exclusively man coverage ('Bama and MSU are the only two I can think of), so it is going to be something else for the CB's to get acclimated to.

Because we were supposed to be a man-press scheme under Schwartz, but his insistence on rushing only the four down linemen and never blitzing made running man too risky, and he just never seemed to trust his personnel to do their jobs. In fact, imo, that was one of the key issues of the Schwartz era- he didn't trust anyone but himself and ended up running a very vanilla scheme because of it.

As for college teams not playing man coverage, I can assure you that far more teams than just Alabama and MSu run man, not really sure where you're coming up with that info? Jonte Green played mostly man at New Mexico State, which is part of the reason he struggled so much in our zone coverages. Slay played almost exclusively man. You say we have no idea how some of these are going to do in man, despite the fact that there's info out there on them playing a lot of man in college- that makes me wonder how many of the other things you think about our players/team are unfounded as well? I'm not saying that to be a dick or anything, you just seem to be pretty sure about some things you post that simply don't hold water.

It seems to me, and this is just my perspective so don't read too much into it, but it seems to me that you make up your mind toward the negative side of any situation with the Lions and then find the evidence that supports your point of view, rather than taking in all of the available info and formulating an opinion based on that... Idk, though, I'm just a dude with a computer- if in doubt on a move the Lions make I remember that it's a billion dollar organization run by professionals who are among the best in the world at what they do, and are in the position they're in for a reason. I think we fans lose sight of that fact sometimes- none of us have the skill-set to do what these guys do at the NFL level, no matter how closely we think we follow the game...

 

[tpaulus_2]

Seems like when they werent throwing all over our defense a team like philly was rushing for 1000 yards on us....when teams throw against us, it usually works....im always praying the other team runs our favorite offensive play...run straight up the centers ass...



We make players like matt flynn look good.

I think those first two words hit the nail right on the head. It seems like we're always worse than we really are because I think most of us don't get enough exposure, or pay close enough attention, to the other 31 defenses in the NFL.

The numbers posted in the article at the beginning of this thread don't lie- we did quite a bit better in pass coverage as a whole than we get credit for. I'm probably starting to sound like a broken record, but we're simply not terrible. We're not good, but we're not terrible. If we are so terrible I'd love to see some evidence supporting that theory. The stats tell a different story, and so far all I've seen supporting the "terrible" theory is A.) we were foolish enough to only play the teams we were scheduled to play, B.) Louis Delmas plays for the Dolphins now, and C.) our best CB last year was cut by the Jaguars last offseason, which has zero impact on the way he ended up playing.

It gets frustrating after a while when the self-anointed realists continually resort to pure perception and refuse to give any ground when presented with stark evidence that directly contradicts a lot of what they're saying.

I'm more than willing to meet in the middle, because I know our secondary isn't that good at all. Why is it so hard for some of you to do the same and admit that our secondary really isn't that terrible, even when offered firm statistics that show how very average they were last year?

 

[tpaulus_2]

And that's not directed at you at all Cleaves, just a general, board-wide response to your post is all... I don't want to go starting any new beef here...