Free agent targets Offseason Armchair GM Thread

[Cbrower91]

Id like to also add Marleau hit Mathieu Schnieder so hard in open ice he broke his arm, you have no idea how much worse and open ice hit is then on the boards, he also hit Jack Johnson so hard he put him out for the season by blowing out his shoulder.

I think most people on this board dont understand how hard he hits, he just hits cleanly not all Torres or out of position murray-esque

 

[Destroydacre]

Down the stretch and into the PO's Marleau was one of the most physical guys on the team when it came to initiating body contact.

I think at least some of the hesitance to get into scrums comes from examples set by the coaching staff. One instance in perticular comes to mind when Clowe jumped into a fray after Couture got smoked late in the season. When Clowe got back to the bench after serving his penalty Woodcroft tore him a new one for costing the Sharks a PP in a close game. What kind of message does that send the players?

Woodcroft is a fucking bozo. Hopefully he has nothing to do with the Sharks organization this season.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

Woodcroft is a fucking bozo. Hopefully he has nothing to do with the Sharks organization this season.

Just move him back to the Vidiot position. I really hope Wilson is serious about bringing assistants in who's primary qualification is playing experience. Ricci tops my list but listening to Hedican towards the end of the season makes me think he has potential to be a solid addition behind the bench as well.

 

[filosofy29]

I'm sorry but Marleau was playing a legitmately physical game over the last 15+ of the regular season and into the PO's. A majority were solid contact hits not the obligitory light bumps after a pass was made that we are all used to seeing.

I understand what you are saying about the culture that stems from the style Thornton and Marleau play. However, I don't think their influence is so great that the team can never win with them though. What is says to me is Doug needs to add a strong willed player, another vet leader, who is the polar opposite. Someone who won't succumb to Thornton or Marleau's influences but instead is strong enough to influence them.

If I'm Doug Wilson my primary target this offseason is Shane Doan. Right behind that is adding one or two more forwards who are overtly physical and can contribute to the offense at a significant level. I'm talking a Steve Ott, Cal Clutterbuck, or Troy Brower type player. Players like these can change the on ice culture of the team.

Fair enough, I just didn't see him do much of it. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I disagree. Similar to our views on the Niemi/Niitty debate we had two seasons ago. I saw a lot more of the obligatory light bumps/rub outs than I did of the shoulder to shoulder variety. Of course by that part of the season, I was pretty jaded, lol, so I may not have watched the games with the same astute eye like earlier in the season.

What player like that is out there though at a price that could keep both Thornton and Marleau and ice a competitive team? Even if Doan only took $5M, that would still hamper the teams ability to ice any depth. A guy making $3M or less probably wouldn't be able to make a sea change in the current team culture. That's why I think the Sharks at least need to get rid of one of the big two. Parise could change the culture, but again, somebody big would have to leave. The only way I could see your scenario working out is if they traded Boyle for somebody like Chara, Kronwall, Weber, or Bieksa. Those are the only defensemen that I can see that would have enough clout to instill their will.....and I don't think any of those guys are available, yet alone for Boyle. If a forward were to come in, you'd think one of the big two would have to be gone.

I'd love to get Doan, I just don't think he leaves Phoenix.....especially after their run this season. Ott was rumored to be on the block, but I have a hard time believing that DWil would go after him due to his history with the Sharks (gut feeling obviously). It would be awesome to find some way to get Ott and Robidas on the Sharks for something like Boyle and Braun. Brouwer should be pretty untouchable for Washington I'd think. Clusterfuck could be a potential target as DWil and Minny seem to have a good working relationship. And yes, I know you were just mentioning them as player types that you'd look for.

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As for Korky, I'm not saying that Marleau CAN'T hit hard, I'm saying that he doesn't do it with any regularity (same goes for Thornton.....ask Cooke and Glass). Marleau and Thornton can also fight pretty well (Marleau destroyed Ballard), but I'm not even asking for them to do that. All I want is to see them both mentally engaged physically in more than 10 games a season. Also, yes, he was the one that broke Schneider's wrist, but that was more of an awkward positioned hit (Schneider had his arms extended) than a bone-crunching open ice layout.

 

[SJVP408]

Id like to also add Marleau hit Mathieu Schnieder so hard in open ice he broke his arm, you have no idea how much worse and open ice hit is then on the boards, he also hit Jack Johnson so hard he put him out for the season by blowing out his shoulder.

I think most people on this board dont understand how hard he hits, he just hits cleanly not all Torres or out of position murray-esque

Just cause he injured a few guys from hitting doesn't make him a feared hitter. Torrey Mitchell skated through four Canucks to score a beauty. Doesn't make anyone consider him a goal scorer.

The thing is, Marleau hits hard, he just doesn't do it consistently. I did see him finish checks in the Blues series as he struggled to produce points. I can tell he made it a point to bring some physicality. But like Filo mentioned, he doesn't do it enough for me to consider him to be "laying it all on the line". The whole stepping out of your comfort zone to do what's necessary to win. That's what's missing.

 

[abaskin18]

I think Kork's point about Datsyuk & Zetterberg holds more water than anything else being debated here.

 

[filosofy29]

I think Kork's point about Datsyuk & Zetterberg holds more water than anything else being debated here.

I've seen Datsyuk and Zetterberg get into scrums after the whistle on a consistent basis (especially when their teammate is outnumbered). I've seen both of them lay out on the ice to block shots. I've seen both of them go to the net and take punishment.

Look, I'm not saying that game 1 of the season, I want Thornton and Marleau to sprawl out on the ice in front of a Chara slapper.....I'm saying that when it's a tight game in the 3rd period of an important, divisional game (better yet in the playoffs) that it would be nice to see them block a shot. In at least 1/3rd of the regular season games, it would be nice to see them go to the net, stop there in front of the goalie and dig for rebounds and take the punishment that's coming. It would be nice if they could backup their teammates when scrums happen around the net and not just skate idly by.

Korky's point is moot becasue I never said anything about fighting. You don't need to fight to be a tough team.....especially with the instigator rules that now apply. Both of Dats and Zetts do the little things it takes to win in the playoffs. Dats and Zetts get in the scrums after the whistle when their teammates need them. Hell, Zetterberg started the most infamous scuffle of the playoffs last year by hitting Weber with 3 seconds left.

 

[abaskin18]

I've seen Datsyuk and Zetterberg get into scrums after the whistle on a consistent basis (especially when their teammate is outnumbered). I've seen both of them lay out on the ice to block shots. I've seen both of them go to the net and take punishment.

Look, I'm not saying that game 1 of the season, I want Thornton and Marleau to sprawl out on the ice in front of a Chara slapper.....I'm saying that when it's a tight game in the 3rd period of an important, divisional game (better yet in the playoffs) that it would be nice to see them block a shot. In at least 1/3rd of the regular season games, it would be nice to see them go to the net, stop there in front of the goalie and dig for rebounds and take the punishment that's coming. It would be nice if they could backup their teammates when scrums happen around the net and not just skate idly by.

Korky's point is moot becasue I never said anything about fighting. You don't need to fight to be a tough team.....especially with the instigator rules that now apply. Both of Dats and Zetts do the little things it takes to win in the playoffs. Dats and Zetts get in the scrums after the whistle when their teammates need them. Hell, Zetterberg started the most infamous scuffle of the playoffs last year by hitting Weber with 3 seconds left.

I actually think the comparison to those two speaks more to discredit the idea that you need "that type of attitude at the top."

I can't speak to what you or others have seen or haven't seen from Dats/Zetts and Joe/Patty, but I personally don't see either pair playing anymore physical or laying it on the line more than the other. You can point to examples from DET just like someone could for the pair in SJ. Any one of us could set that bar of "consistency" where ever the fuck we want and say someone lives up to it or not. All I see here is people who either have noticed it or not, scattered among those who remember every play you wished someone had layed out and were grabbing a beer every time they landed a big hit. People only remember the stuff that irks them.

If the pair in DET do enough in other areas of their games to get a pass on having "that type of attitude at the top," that's a different discussion, imo.

 

[SJVP408]

Down the stretch and into the PO's Marleau was one of the most physical guys on the team when it came to initiating body contact.

I think at least some of the hesitance to get into scrums comes from examples set by the coaching staff. One instance in perticular comes to mind when Clowe jumped into a fray after Couture got smoked late in the season. When Clowe got back to the bench after serving his penalty Woodcroft tore him a new one for costing the Sharks a PP in a close game. What kind of message does that send the players?

That's a tough situation to me. On one hand you want to breed comradery, on the other the lost PP chance. If Couture got 'smoked' like you said, I allow Clowe to be Clowe. I'd have to see it to determine if Clowe's over aggressiveness was warranted.

On a team that has never shaken the soft image over recent years, I think actions like what Clowe did should be inspiring and he should be patted on the back by Coach.

 

[filosofy29]

I actually think the comparison to those two speaks more to discredit the idea that you need "that type of attitude at the top."

I can't speak to what you or others have seen or haven't seen from Dats/Zetts and Joe/Patty, but I personally don't see either pair playing anymore physical or laying it on the line more than the other. You can point to examples from DET just like someone could for the pair in SJ. Any one of us could set that bar of "consistency" where ever the fuck we want and say someone lives up to it or not. All I see here is people who either have noticed it or not, scattered among those who remember every play you wished someone had layed out and were grabbing a beer every time they landed a big hit. People only remember the stuff that irks them.

If the pair in DET do enough in other areas of their games to get a pass on having "that type of attitude at the top," that's a different discussion, imo.

Ah, gotcha, if that was Korks intent, than I can agree with that. You don't need a Messier type leader to win the Cup. That said, I still think that Dats and Zetts do a lot more of the little things that it takes to win than Marleau or Thornton ever would (I really don't care about the scoring aspect).

I've asked, I don't think I've ever seen Marleau or Thornton (as a Shark) lay down and block a shot. I remember Patty jumping over a slap shot in the Dallas series. Joe and Patty don't go to the net and stop there when the puck is at the goalies feet and take multiple whacks and take some punishment more than 10 times a season (since I don't want to use consistently here).....they do the drive by whack and then gtfo of there. Of course we can set "consistency wherever the fuck we want", we're not arguing/debating about concrete stats like goals or assists. To that point of setting a bar wherever the fuck we want, I've never said that Korky and Cmon were wrong. I've said I disagree with their pov from what I personally see when I watch the games. I'm not looking for a black and white "this is why I'm right so in all of your faces answer". It's just my perceptions/opinions and I could be dead wrong. I'm far from a hockey expert.

Agreed, but I don't see a "ho-hum", "that's sports", "unlucky bounces" attitude from Zetterberg and Datsyuk. I see two guys who show accountability and do what it takes to win. I do agree with you though that it is a different discussion.

 

[filosofy29]

That's a tough situation to me. On one hand you want to breed comradery, on the other the lost PP chance. If Couture got 'smoked' like you said, I allow Clowe to be Clowe. I'd have to see it to determine if Clowe's over aggressiveness was warranted.

On a team that has never shaken the soft image over recent years, I think actions like what Clowe did should be inspiring and he should be patted on the back by Coach.

If I'm thinking of the right game that Cmon is alluding to, it was a game against Columbus. Clowe went over the top there for sure. That said, the Sharks leadership (Thornton calling Clowe out and BabyJay yelling at Clowe on the bench) should have been more upset that lowly Columbus scored 4 unanswered goals in the 1st period because the Sharks came out flat and not ready to play. Thornton should have said something like, "yeah it wasn't the greatest moment there by Clowey, but I'm more concerned with why we started out down 4-0 after the first 20 minutes."

Instead he called Clowe out to the media, though not by name. It really was a bonehead move by Clowe though to be fair.

 

[abaskin18]

Ah, gotcha, if that was Korks intent, than I can agree with that. You don't need a Messier type to win the Cup. That said, I still think that Dats and Zetts do a lot more of the little things that it takes to win than Marleau or Thornton ever would (I really don't care about the scoring aspect).

I've asked, I don't think I've ever seen Marleau or Thornton (as a Shark) lay down and block a shot. I remember Patty jumping over a slap shot in the Dallas series. Joe and Patty don't go to the net and stop there when the puck is at the goalies feet and take multiple whacks and take some punishment more than 10 times a season (since I don't want to use consistently here).....they do the drive by whack and then gtfo of there. Of course we can set "consistency wherever the fuck we want", we're not arguing/debating about concrete stats like goals or assists. To that point of setting a bar wherever the fuck we want, I've never said that Korky and Cmon were wrong. I've said I disagree with their pov from what I personally see when I watch the games. I'm not looking for a black and white "this is why I'm right so in all of your faces answer". It's just my perceptions/opinions and I could be dead wrong. I'm far from a hockey expert.

Agreed, but I don't see a "ho-hum", "that's sports", "unlucky bounces" attitude from Zetterberg and Datsyuk. I see two guys who show accountability and do what it takes to win. I do agree with you though that it is a different discussion.

I'm not sure that was Kork's intent either, but that's what I took from it. Winning is the cure all here. That's the reason the Detroit duo are viewed differently in the context of this discussion, imo. If the SJ duo layed out to block a shot or two and the team lost I doubt anyone would take solace in the blocks. IMO, you see the accountability and what it takes to win from them because they've won, not the other way around.

I never meant to imply things were black and white either, or that you've said me or anyone else was "wrong" (someone being wrong on a message board is about the safest bet there is though, it's the other person being right where people run into trouble :p). However, you claimed you don't see it as often as you want, someone contends that they do, and the response to that is to say it doesn't happen consistently enough for you. To me that's someone framing an argument, and while not calling it black and white, it certainly implies that one person's view is not up snuff with a really subjective standard.

 

[filosofy29]

I'm not sure that was Kork's intent either, but that's what I took from it. Winning is the cure all here. That's the reason the Detroit duo are viewed differently in the context of this discussion, imo. If the SJ duo layed out to block a shot or two and the team lost I doubt anyone would take solace in the blocks. IMO, you see the accountability and what it takes to win from them because they've won, not the other way around.

I never meant to imply things were black and white either, or that you've said me or anyone else was "wrong" (someone being wrong on a message board is about the safest bet there is though, it's the other person being right where people run into trouble :p). However, you claimed you don't see it as often as you want, someone contends that they do, and the response to that is to say it doesn't happen consistently enough for you. To me that's someone framing an argument, and while not calling it black and white, it certainly implies that one person's view is not up snuff with a really subjective standard.

Winning helps, but it's sure not the cure nor the end-all-be-all to me. I personally don't think I'm jaded by it, but of course, that's a subjective pov I have . I see "it" in Shane Doan, I see "it" in Ryan Smyth, I see "it" in Jarome Iginla, I see "it" in Zach Parise, I see "it" in Ryan Miller. As far as I know, none of those guys has won a Stanley Cup (correct me if I'm wrong though). Hell, I still don't see "it" in guys like Patrick Kane and Jeff Carter. To use Dustin Penner, I didn't see "it" while he was with Anaheim but I did see him change his game and see "it" this Cup run with Los Angeles.

This to me kind of goes without saying. Of course I'm framing my argument how I see it. Korky and Cmon have brought their opinions to the table and I've brought mine.....they're on one side of the spectrum and I'm on the other. They've seen enough of it from Marleau and Thornton (or at least on a comparable rate to Dats/Zets) , I don't see it enough. I think most people on this board respect Cmon/what he has to say MUCH more than they respect me/what I have to say. Most of the time when I'm 50/50 on something I just defer to what Cmon says because I trust his word and his hockey eyes more than I do my own. Just like most of the time when I'm 50/50 on something goalie related, I defer to Kork even though I played goalie for a couple years. He knows a lot more about goaltending nuances than I do. He'd probably mispell nuance though. On this particular instance, I disagree with both of them (and it sounds like you too and I have mad respect for all 3 of your opinions).....whole-heartedly.....and I could be wrong.....but I could be right.

EDIT: I have still yet to see a youtube video of Thornton (as a Shark) or Marleau laying down on the ice to block a shot.

 

[abaskin18]

Winning helps, but it's sure not the cure nor the end-all-be-all to me. I personally don't think I'm jaded by it, but of course, that's a subjective pov I have . I see "it" in Shane Doan, I see "it" in Ryan Smyth, I see "it" in Jarome Iginla. I see "it" in Zach Parise, I see "it" in Ryan Miller. As far as I know, none of those guys has won a Stanley Cup (correct me if I'm wrong though). Hell, I still don't see "it" in guys like Patrick Kane and Jeff Carter. To use Dustin Penner, I didn't see "it" while he was with Anaheim but I did see him change his game and see "it" this Cup run with Los Angeles.

Exactly my point. I can't speak for them, but I doubt that "it" factor keeps the cupless fans any warmer at night than cupless fans who don't have those "it" guys on the roster.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the cup being a cure all.

 

[filosofy29]

Exactly my point. I can't speak for them, but I doubt that "it" factor keeps the cupless fans any warmer at night than cupless fans who don't have those "it" guys on the roster.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the cup being a cure all.

I don't care whether the fans of those teams/players see "it" in those guys. It's my opinion and I doubt the fans of those teams/players care at all if I see "it" in the players mentioned. If the Sharks had Doan and Parise on the team in place of Thornton and Marleau, I'd feel much better going into the playoffs than I do now. That doesn't mean the Sharks would win the Cup at all.

Huh? How can we disagree on my opinion? I'm telling you that the Cup is NOT the cure all for me. I've seen passengers play on Stanley Cup winning teams. I doubt Ryan Smyth ever wins one.....nor Iginla if he stays in Calgary. That won't alter my opinion of them.....I still see "it" in them. It seems like you're using your idea of how most fans view guys who have won and guys who haven't won and then projecting that onto me.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

It's not my contention that I've seen enough of that type of play to be satisfied with Thornton and Marleau's preformance. The examples of those two playing outside their comfortzone, expanding their game, are inconsistant at best.

It is my view though that there are enough examples to believe that given the right surroundings both Thornton and Marleau would add to their games and give a consistantly higher effort outside their current comfort zones.

 

[abaskin18]

I don't care whether the fans of those teams/players see "it" in those guys. It's my opinion and I doubt the fans of those teams/players care at all if I see "it" in the players mentioned. If the Sharks had Doan and Parise on the team in place of Thornton and Marleau, I'd feel much better going into the playoffs than I do now. That doesn't mean the Sharks would win the Cup at all.

Huh? How can we disagree on my opinion? I'm telling you that the Cup is NOT the cure all for me. I've seen passengers play on Stanley Cup winning teams. I doubt Ryan Smyth ever wins one.....nor Iginla if he stays in Calgary. That won't alter my opinion of them.....I still see "it" in them. It seems like you're using your idea of how most fans view guys who have won and guys who haven't won and then projecting that onto me.

As for the underlined: But I wouldn't feel any better after a playoff exit knowing we had those 'it" guys in place. That was my point there.

As for the bold, maybe. My contention was more to point out that while some guys may have "it" in your view and some guys don't (Ironically I agree with everyone you listed in terms of having "it" or not, as I see it), it doesn't mean much if it doesn't amount to win and that it doesn't, as you acknowledged, necessarily lead to a win. Also crystallized by your list is that teams can and have won with non "it" guys at the top.

I am certainly projecting my frustration onto you in regards to a long held belief of mine about how champs are perceived compared to those who haven't won: Fans see guys who can't win the big one and never will....until they do. Then the perception shifts and they're seen as having "raised their game" whether they did or not.

As for agreeing to disagree, that's simply me saying I don't expect, nor was I trying, to change your opinion. How can we disagree on your opinion? Simply, I have a different opinion that a cup win would make even the most ardent blame-wagoner wonder what they were upset about in the first place, that's all.

 

[abaskin18]

It's not my contention that I've seen enough of that type of play to be satisfied with Thornton and Marleau's preformance. The examples of those two playing outside their comfortzone, expanding their game, are inconsistant at best.

It is my view though that there are enough examples to believe that given the right surroundings both Thornton and Marleau would add to their games and give a consistantly higher effort outside their current comfort zones.

Well put. Sorry if it sounded like I was speaking for you.

 

[Cmon_WTF]

We might be getting some news on Nash today. Howson has a presser scheduled for 5pm ET. He reportedly met with Nash and his agent this morning.

 

[Stackem]

Definitly with filo on this one. Lack of effort, inconsistent play, and at best shoddy leadership pretty much sum up Thornton and Marleau, and this isn't new. Watch that video from Thornton's rookie camp, this is WHO HE IS. At the end of the day, they lack the intangible qualities in professional athletes that elevate their play and the players around them to win championships. imo. When this represents 2/3'rds of the core leadership of a team, I believe history will prove it cannot succeed. I guess you can try and push that effort/drive/concistentcy responsability to other 'role' players, but again, I think that approach is flawed and ultimatly giving them a pass. And btw, isn't this pretty much what the sharks have been doing for years now? Trying to find the right parts to plug in and around Joe and Marleau?